Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
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24-03-2014, 10:15 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
I'll go ahead and ask some questions- it's the interwebs and a forum...so why not?

In medieval times, the Church would sell indulgences for money. This amounted to paying for days remission from purgatory. The church literally sold signed certificates. In 1903, Pope Pius X was able to calculate the number of days remission from purgatory that each rank in the heirarchy was entitled to grant. Cardinals got 200 days, archbishops got 100. Poor bishops only got 50. Can the Church sell anything else? Even though I'm not a believer, can I buy time off from Hell? Or can I pay to have someone released from Hell? Can I buy my way, or somebody elses way into Heaven?

Pope Benedict XVI abolished limbo. Does that mean all babies who have been suffering there for centuries floated off to Heaven? Or did they stay, and only babies that died after the Pope abolished it got to go to Heaven? Or were earlier Popes wrong, despite their infallibility?

The religion of one age, is the literary entertainment of the next.
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24-03-2014, 10:17 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 09:45 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  Question: Is salvation by faith alone?

Salvation is not by faith alone, 90% of the time it starts out as something uncontrollable that happens in your life, and your left to look up at God and question if is he is there. The ones that honestly want him to be involved in there lives, I mean honestly not giving him a half chance, I mean giving him the full opportunity, He meets. Right then and there and that experience is cemented. That is how it happened for me. In that moment God met me
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24-03-2014, 10:18 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:12 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 10:04 AM)natachan Wrote:  Subjective personal experience is insufficient evidence. The existence of consciousness is proof of nothing. This is a very weak argument.



Well what your not going to be able to do is tell me that i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing. It doesn't have to be evidence for you, but you what your not going to be able to say is that what i'm experiencing just doesn't exist...This is also a weak argument

The difference is I am not claiming my imaginary voice is real. You are. Prove it. You are making a claim, that your voice, WHICH ONLY YOU CAN HEAR, is real and applies to everyone and the entire universe. What evidence do you have for this?
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24-03-2014, 10:19 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:12 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 10:04 AM)natachan Wrote:  Subjective personal experience is insufficient evidence. The existence of consciousness is proof of nothing. This is a very weak argument.



Well what your not going to be able to do is tell me that i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing. It doesn't have to be evidence for you, but you what your not going to be able to say is that what i'm experiencing just doesn't exist...This is also a weak argument

I would not tell you that you are not experiencing something, but I will tell you it is called a repeated bunch of delusional and fantastical thoughts your insucure ego needs to be real for you to handle life on this planet.

Show me this spirit will you?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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24-03-2014, 10:19 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:14 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 09:49 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  No, not any of those things. I can explain why I don't believe very simply.

I have never heard, or been given convincing or compelling evidence to believe. That's it, and that's all.

You yourself actually do understand this concept, as you yourself (I am assuming) never heard, or have been given convincing evidence to believe in Vishnu. In the same way you remain unconvinced of Vishnu, Thor, Odin, Ra, the coyote trickster god, the great juju of the mountain, the shark Aumakua, etc... In the same way you remain unconvinced in these and many more, I remain unconvinced in your thing.

That's it, and that's all.


Ok. Im not here to try and convince you...your mind is made up....I'm here to find out why...it goes deeper than evidence...its something that is repelling you...the people...culture etc. experience. Im here to hear your story...Your real story

The real story is............. There. is. no. evidence.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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24-03-2014, 10:20 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:10 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Firstly, stop erasing the opening half of the quote tags.

(24-03-2014 10:00 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  Of course...This would be the evidence of the holy spirit. Gods spirit living within a human being. Every christian can tell you its there, Everyone doesn't have it, I understand it may sound like bull crap, but just as sure I'm talking to you at this moment, He can do the same thing. This is my evidence....The Holy spirit

You are assuming that. You have to assume the holy spirit exists in order for it to be proof of God. It's circular. What evidence do you have that doesn't require you to assume he exists in the first place?


(24-03-2014 10:04 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  Very Good Matthew 10: Jesus Christ is speaking about the coming day of Judgement...His future judgement. He is not talking about his physical reign.

Read Matthew 10 in it's entirety. It doesn't say that. You're assuming that to maintain a narrative:

Quote:Jesus Sends Out the Twelve

10 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

24 “The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!

26 “So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care.[b] 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

40 “Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41 Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”

He sends them out, but he doesn't say this applies to the final judgment.

So we can ask some very basic questions that are going to put us on opposite ends of the scale Am I assuming the holy spirit exists or am I claiming...your getting caught up in the words and ignoring the concept...My claim, the holy spirit exists, especially within my life...your claim no he doesn't....my claim....Yes he does...Where do you wanna go from here???

Nor is he speaking about his physical reign on earth, So what is your assertion of this scripture, I'm curious??
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24-03-2014, 10:23 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:17 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 09:45 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  Question: Is salvation by faith alone?

Salvation is not by faith alone, 90% of the time it starts out as something uncontrollable that happens in your life, and your left to look up at God and question if is he is there. The ones that honestly want him to be involved in there lives, I mean honestly not giving him a half chance, I mean giving him the full opportunity, He meets. Right then and there and that experience is cemented. That is how it happened for me. In that moment God met me

So you looked to explain a significant event in your life, and assigned a god behind it so you can better deal with it. Nothing new and nothing but a crutch of a father figure you wished into existence. Face reality on its terms as understanding it is so much more meaningful than fantasy.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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24-03-2014, 10:23 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 10:08 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  ok

Why was this so hard to grasp?



I think its funny, That claim can be made that people are messed up. I wouldn't look at that and say oh yeah that guy flogging those people is definitely representing God...People will never be an accurate representation of Who God really is, some take it and are serious about and actually want to be a child of God, others in the past have exploited it for personal gain. But past all of this, is this evidence for/against God?? certainly not
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24-03-2014, 10:24 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:08 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  ok

Why was this so hard to grasp?
[/quote]

I have NO idea. What kind of moron can't do quote tags right? Tongue
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24-03-2014, 10:27 AM (This post was last modified: 25-03-2014 10:06 AM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 09:54 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  And to be clear, I'm not asking you to describe the "god" you believe in, to describe "Jesus", or "Yahweh". We already know the bible, quoting passages about "Jesus", or "Yahweh" would be wasteful of time, and only tells us about aspects for those particular "gods", but not what a "god" in fact is.

What I am actually asking you to describe is, what is a "god"? What does that even mean?

That may sound like an obvious question, but it actually is not. Before I could care about anything you say about your particular "god" concept, I need to understand what it is.


I think that is a fairly Good question. Much of what God is can not be defined humanly. You can not place a finite space on an infinite God.

Have you ever heard of a Special Pleading Fallacy.


Quote:All I know about God is what he has revealed to us

Who is this "us"?

Your statement implies that this thing can "appear" to people. You have not demonstrated this with evidence.

Quote: about him, and the things that he hasn't revealed its possible we probably just wouldn't understand,

Special Pleading Fallacy [ETA: Courtier's Reply]


Quote:nor can we demand that of him because he is a our creator, not the other way around.

Special Pleading Fallacy Non Sequitur Fallacy, False Dichotomy Fallacy



Quote: But if i had to define him in a space God is love.

And what is this "love"? Support your assertion with evidence.


Quote: God has revealed that about himself time and time again

Support your assertion with evidence.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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