Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
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24-03-2014, 10:27 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:14 AM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 10:12 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  Well what your not going to be able to do is tell me that i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing. It doesn't have to be evidence for you, but you what your not going to be able to say is that what i'm experiencing just doesn't exist...This is also a weak argument

There's no question that people can experience subjective brain-states that are very real to them, yet are entirely hallucinatory.

Internal, unverifiable personal experiences are unreliable because they are entirely subjective.

So basically what your telling me is I'm not allowed to tell you what I've experienced in my personal life?? I'm completely rationale to debate with all of you, and take your questions and answer them, yet i'm hallucinating about the holy spirit within my life...is that the size of it all??
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24-03-2014, 10:28 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:14 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  Ok. Im not hear to try and convince you...your mind is made up....I'm hear to find out why...it goes deeper than evidence...its something that is repelling you...the people...culture etc. experience. Im hear to hear your story...Your real story

Stop being disingenuous. You're here for one of two reasons: 1) troll 2) ask for evidence against God.

Asking for someone's "story" is a guise to say, "but yeah, how does that prove that God isn't real?"

You're using dishonest tactic to ask for a dishonest answer to an unanswerable question.

There is no amount of empirical evidence that prove God's existence or non-existence nor is any amount of anecdotal evidence sufficient to prove God's existence or non-existence. God isn't based in empirical evidence, and any Christian that says He is is lying to himself. God is based on faith which is in clear contention with empirical evidence. That being said, Christians are given faith in order to believe and establish a bridge that crosses the need for empirical evidence; thus creating the evidence that one needs to believe.

Asking this of an atheist is shifting the burden of proof. You cannot prove it just as much as they cannot disprove it, and it's disingenuous to ask that they do when you know good and well you can't sufficiency prove God's existence based purely on empirical evidence.

Stop making theists look bad with dishonest, annoying, trite tactics like this.

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24-03-2014, 10:28 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:27 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 10:14 AM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  There's no question that people can experience subjective brain-states that are very real to them, yet are entirely hallucinatory.

Internal, unverifiable personal experiences are unreliable because they are entirely subjective.

So basically what your telling me is I'm not allowed to tell you what I've experienced in my personal life?? I'm completely rationale to debate with all of you, and take your questions and answer them, yet i'm hallucinating about the holy spirit within my life...is that the size of it all??

BINGO!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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24-03-2014, 10:29 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:23 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 10:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Why was this so hard to grasp?



I think its funny, That claim can be made that people are messed up. I wouldn't look at that and say oh yeah that guy flogging those people is definitely representing God...People will never be an accurate representation of Who God really is, some take it and are serious about and actually want to be a child of God, others in the past have exploited it for personal gain. But past all of this, is this evidence for/against God?? certainly not

Oh ok. So you're retarded. Got it.

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24-03-2014, 10:29 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:15 AM)=jesse= Wrote:  I'll go ahead and ask some questions- it's the interwebs and a forum...so why not?

In medieval times, the Church would sell indulgences for money. This amounted to paying for days remission from purgatory. The church literally sold signed certificates. In 1903, Pope Pius X was able to calculate the number of days remission from purgatory that each rank in the heirarchy was entitled to grant. Cardinals got 200 days, archbishops got 100. Poor bishops only got 50. Can the Church sell anything else? Even though I'm not a believer, can I buy time off from Hell? Or can I pay to have someone released from Hell? Can I buy my way, or somebody elses way into Heaven?

Pope Benedict XVI abolished limbo. Does that mean all babies who have been suffering there for centuries floated off to Heaven? Or did they stay, and only babies that died after the Pope abolished it got to go to Heaven? Or were earlier Popes wrong, despite their infallibility?




I am not catholic, that is a catholic belief. The catholic church, ruled my religious fore-fathers has heretics and killed them. So I'm not going to answer for what they have done in the Name of God, that is question a catholic must answer
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24-03-2014, 10:29 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 09:58 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  Well just to get straight to the point. Most of those representations are not representations of God. I believe anyone who says that they are for God and in the same breath kill, divide, disturb...yes enslave, etc. Are not of God, they clearly are not reading what the bible is saying and representing what they claim to represent. You can not say in one breath that you believe in Christ and that he has forgiven you of your sings and in the same breath believe that someone should die for theirs. Those two ideas don't interact, Christ was against violence. When Peter grabbed his sword to defend Christ when they took him to be crucified, Christ stopped him because that wasn't what he came to do.

So, this mythical gawd creature in your OT babble, you denounce it.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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24-03-2014, 10:31 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:18 AM)natachan Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 10:12 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  Well what your not going to be able to do is tell me that i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing. It doesn't have to be evidence for you, but you what your not going to be able to say is that what i'm experiencing just doesn't exist...This is also a weak argument

The difference is I am not claiming my imaginary voice is real. You are. Prove it. You are making a claim, that your voice, WHICH ONLY YOU CAN HEAR, is real and applies to everyone and the entire universe. What evidence do you have for this?

It doesn't apply to you, but it does to me...That is evidence for me. But past that let just ask a basic question of all of the Christians that lived and walk the earth, do you feel that they have under gone all of this scrutiny, the persecution etc. because of a belief they have no evidence in??? just yes or no
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24-03-2014, 10:32 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:29 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 10:15 AM)=jesse= Wrote:  I'll go ahead and ask some questions- it's the interwebs and a forum...so why not?

In medieval times, the Church would sell indulgences for money. This amounted to paying for days remission from purgatory. The church literally sold signed certificates. In 1903, Pope Pius X was able to calculate the number of days remission from purgatory that each rank in the heirarchy was entitled to grant. Cardinals got 200 days, archbishops got 100. Poor bishops only got 50. Can the Church sell anything else? Even though I'm not a believer, can I buy time off from Hell? Or can I pay to have someone released from Hell? Can I buy my way, or somebody elses way into Heaven?

Pope Benedict XVI abolished limbo. Does that mean all babies who have been suffering there for centuries floated off to Heaven? Or did they stay, and only babies that died after the Pope abolished it got to go to Heaven? Or were earlier Popes wrong, despite their infallibility?




I am not catholic, that is a catholic belief. The catholic church, ruled my religious fore-fathers has heretics and killed them. So I'm not going to answer for what they have done in the Name of God, that is question a catholic must answer

So not applicable because not your religion. Got it. So does that mean that the Catholics have it wrong and you've got it right?

edit: Just to clarify, when I say 'you', I don't just mean you specifically. I'm referring to anyone who believes in the exact same doctrine that you do.

The religion of one age, is the literary entertainment of the next.
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24-03-2014, 10:33 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:31 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 10:18 AM)natachan Wrote:  The difference is I am not claiming my imaginary voice is real. You are. Prove it. You are making a claim, that your voice, WHICH ONLY YOU CAN HEAR, is real and applies to everyone and the entire universe. What evidence do you have for this?

It doesn't apply to you, but it does to me...That is evidence for me. But past that let just ask a basic question of all of the Christians that lived and walk the earth, do you feel that they have under gone all of this scrutiny, the persecution etc. because of a belief they have no evidence in??? just yes or no

YES!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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24-03-2014, 10:33 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:27 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 10:14 AM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  There's no question that people can experience subjective brain-states that are very real to them, yet are entirely hallucinatory.

Internal, unverifiable personal experiences are unreliable because they are entirely subjective.

So basically what your telling me is I'm not allowed to tell you what I've experienced in my personal life?? I'm completely rationale to debate with all of you, and take your questions and answer them, yet i'm hallucinating about the holy spirit within my life...is that the size of it all??

No, I'm saying your personal experiences of the Holy Spirit are indistinguishable from hallucination since there is no method to substantiate them as due to an external entity.

You're certainly allowed to share your experience, simply be aware that such subjective experiences hold no meaning to external viewers, as we have no frame of reference for them.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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