Heat is the average of the randomized motion
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10-09-2012, 06:36 AM
Heat is the average of the randomized motion
So kids going to school is heat?


A shak slam dunk, is 'heat'?

Heat aint a property, it is a label of the average of the randomized motion

Heat is a description of a system but not a property of nature!

any debate?
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10-09-2012, 07:02 AM
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
(10-09-2012 06:36 AM)Bishadi Wrote:  So kids going to school is heat?


A shak slam dunk, is 'heat'?

Heat aint a property, it is a label of the average of the randomized motion

Heat is a description of a system but not a property of nature!

any debate?

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10-09-2012, 07:07 AM
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
(10-09-2012 06:36 AM)Bishadi Wrote:  So kids going to school is heat?


A shak slam dunk, is 'heat'?

Heat aint a property, it is a label of the average of the randomized motion

Heat is a description of a system but not a property of nature!

any debate?

No, I agree with you 100%. Heat is the average of the random motion.

But when you say "kid going to school is heat", this is just you inability to express yourself in proper English language. If I were to correct you, I would say that the kid going to school is producing heat, as he moves, he creates traction and that creates heat. We all know this from the first physics classes, nothing revolutionary here. But thank you for reminding us of the basics.

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10-09-2012, 07:13 AM (This post was last modified: 10-09-2012 07:18 AM by fstratzero.)
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
[Image: JTRfw.jpg]


Temperature is a physical property of matter that quantitatively expresses the common notions of hot and cold. Objects of low temperature are cold, while various degrees of higher temperatures are referred to as warm or hot. Derp derp derp.

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10-09-2012, 07:23 AM
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
(10-09-2012 07:07 AM)Filox Wrote:  
(10-09-2012 06:36 AM)Bishadi Wrote:  So kids going to school is heat?


A shak slam dunk, is 'heat'?

Heat aint a property, it is a label of the average of the randomized motion

Heat is a description of a system but not a property of nature!

any debate?

No, I agree with you 100%. Heat is the average of the random motion.

so to know what is causing the motion of 'all' of them particles, then it aint random, right?

Quote:But when you say "kid going to school is heat", this is just you inability to express yourself in proper English language.

sorry, i just opened up the scale. Ie... if you were on the moon watching your school, all that 'motion' could appear random, but it aint!
Quote: If I were to correct you, I would say that the kid going to school is producing heat, as he moves, he creates traction and that creates heat.
there you go again...... thats a circle jerk approach.

Go back to the single atoms, what is causing the motion? Heat, aint a property.


i just asked you for causality, nothing about changing anything except your approach to recognize that 'cause' is more relevant that defining a 'random system' with physics.
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10-09-2012, 07:24 AM
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
(10-09-2012 07:13 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  [Image: JTRfw.jpg]


Temperature is a physical property of matter that quantitatively expresses the common notions of hot and cold. Objects of low temperature are cold, while various degrees of higher temperatures are referred to as warm or hot. Derp derp derp.

and that concept belongs in the steam engine era

it is like me bringing you a menu that says 'food' and you dont care what you eat.
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10-09-2012, 07:40 AM (This post was last modified: 10-09-2012 08:02 AM by fstratzero.)
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
(10-09-2012 07:24 AM)Bishadi Wrote:  
(10-09-2012 07:13 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  [Image: JTRfw.jpg]


Temperature is a physical property of matter that quantitatively expresses the common notions of hot and cold. Objects of low temperature are cold, while various degrees of higher temperatures are referred to as warm or hot. Derp derp derp.

and that concept belongs in the steam engine era

it is like me bringing you a menu that says 'food' and you dont care what you eat.

Ok I can understand how you don't understand that.

Temperature is the measurement of the amount of kinetic/potential energy in masses. The higher the energetic state the hotter it is and the lower the energetic the colder it is.

So is that a property of nature. Yes.

Below is a molecule that would be hot because of the movement of it's atoms. If the movement were slow it would be cold.

[Image: Thermally_Agitated_Molecule.gif]

Heat is the high average of the randomized motion of atoms
Cold is the low average of the randomized motion of atoms

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10-09-2012, 07:54 AM
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
Something can be a property without being a fundamental property. Heat and more specifically temperature can be a coarse-grained property of a compound object that is composed of fundamental particles. The "temperature" of a molecule or set of molecules ends up being I think an expression of the electromagnetic field between the charged particles that make up the molecules - protons an electrons where the proton at least is made up of more fundamental particles.

I'm reminded of the presuppositional apologetic argument that you can't have absolute morality without a god. Here you seem to say that you can't have absolute properties without dealing with those properties at a fundamental particle level. Well, isn't it enough for a property to be useful? Isn't that enough to describe it as being a property or a characteristic of the thing you are describing?

Heat and heat flow are useful descriptions, so in that sense they are useful properties of object. There is a scale at which they cease to be useful descriptions and in that sense you could describe them as being imaginary, transitory, and not absolute. I think you'll find that they are properties nevertheless, that hold at useful scales. Very few phenomena in nature are yet able to be accurately modelled based on fundamental particles and forces alone. There are larger scale properties that in theory simply flow out of the fundamental interactions, but in practice are much easier to calculate and make predications about if we ignore the fundamental and look to what we can directly measure and observe.

So in the end whether heat is a property or not is a question of semantics. I would define property or attribute as being something that is useful in describing a thing that it applies to, either in describing its current state or in describing how its state will change under particular conditions. So temperature in particular would seem to be a useful property that I can state for myself as an object. I have a particular temperature, and in fact I need to exist within a particular temperature range. The importance of temperature as a property at the scale of you and me is in fact hard to understate Smile

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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10-09-2012, 08:00 AM
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
(10-09-2012 07:40 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(10-09-2012 07:24 AM)Bishadi Wrote:  and that concept belongs in the steam engine era

it is like me bringing you a menu that says 'food' and you dont care what you eat.

Ok I can understand how you don't understand that.

Temperature is the measurement of the amount of kinetic/potential energy in masses. The higher the energetic state the hotter it is and the lower the colder it is.

So is that a property of nature. Yes.

Below is a molecule that would be hot because of it's movement. If it were slower it would be cold.

[Image: Thermally_Agitated_Molecule.gif]

nature aint based on 'speed'. That is error of the current paradigm.

you hit the nail on the head and why 'walking the planck' always ends short
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10-09-2012, 08:01 AM
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
(10-09-2012 07:54 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Something can be a property without being a fundamental property. Heat and more specifically temperature can be a coarse-grained property of a compound object that is composed of fundamental particles. The "temperature" of a molecule or set of molecules ends up being I think an expression of the electromagnetic field between the charged particles that make up the molecules - protons an electrons where the proton at least is made up of more fundamental particles.

I'm reminded of the presuppositional apologetic argument that you can't have absolute morality without a god. Here you seem to say that you can't have absolute properties without dealing with those properties at a fundamental particle level. Well, isn't it enough for a property to be useful? Isn't that enough to describe it as being a property or a characteristic of the thing you are describing?

Heat and heat flow are useful descriptions, so in that sense they are useful properties of object. There is a scale at which they cease to be useful descriptions and in that sense you could describe them as being imaginary, transitory, and not absolute. I think you'll find that they are properties nevertheless, that hold at useful scales. Very few phenomena in nature are yet able to be accurately modelled based on fundamental particles and forces alone. There are larger scale properties that in theory simply flow out of the fundamental interactions, but in practice are much easier to calculate and make predications about if we ignore the fundamental and look to what we can directly measure and observe.

So in the end whether heat is a property or not is a question of semantics. I would define property or attribute as being something that is useful in describing a thing that it applies to, either in describing its current state or in describing how its state will change under particular conditions. So temperature in particular would seem to be a useful property that I can state for myself as an object. I have a particular temperature, and in fact I need to exist within a particular temperature range. The importance of temperature as a property at the scale of you and me is in fact hard to understate Smile
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