Heat is the average of the randomized motion
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10-09-2012, 08:22 AM (This post was last modified: 10-09-2012 08:55 AM by fstratzero.)
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
(10-09-2012 08:00 AM)Bishadi Wrote:  nature aint based on 'speed'. That is error of the current paradigm.

you hit the nail on the head and why 'walking the planck' always ends short

The good thing about our discussion is that I've dug up my physics books. It's been a long time and I could use a brush up if I'm going to argue.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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10-09-2012, 08:58 AM
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
(10-09-2012 08:22 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(10-09-2012 08:00 AM)Bishadi Wrote:  nature aint based on 'speed'. That is error of the current paradigm.

you hit the nail on the head and why 'walking the planck' always ends short

The good thing about our discussion is that I've dug up my physics books. It's been a long time and I could use a brush up if I'm going to argue.

[Image: wat_o_84572.jpg]

perfect.

to be responsible for what you claim, should be a normal part of human interactions
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10-09-2012, 09:03 AM
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
(10-09-2012 08:00 AM)Bishadi Wrote:  
(10-09-2012 07:40 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  Ok I can understand how you don't understand that.

Temperature is the measurement of the amount of kinetic/potential energy in masses. The higher the energetic state the hotter it is and the lower the colder it is.

So is that a property of nature. Yes.

Below is a molecule that would be hot because of it's movement. If it were slower it would be cold.

[Image: Thermally_Agitated_Molecule.gif]

nature aint based on 'speed'. That is error of the current paradigm.

you hit the nail on the head and why 'walking the planck' always ends short

Quote:In physics, energy (Ancient Greek: ἐνέργεια energeia "activity, operation"[1]) is an indirectly observed quantity that is often understood as the ability of a physical system to do work on other physical systems.[2][3] Since work is defined as a force acting through a distance (a length of space), energy is always equivalent to the ability to exert pulls or pushes against the basic forces of nature, along a path of a certain length.
The total energy contained in an object is identified with its mass, and energy cannot be created or destroyed. When matter (ordinary material particles) is changed into energy (such as energy of motion, or into radiation), the mass of the system does not change through the transformation process. However, there may be mechanistic limits as to how much of the matter in an object may be changed into other types of energy and thus into work, on other systems. Energy, like mass, is a scalar physical quantity. In the International System of Units (SI), energy is measured in joules, but in many fields other units, such as kilowatt-hours and kilocalories, are customary. All of these units translate to units of work, which is always defined in terms of forces and the distances that the forces act through.

*uses legitimate source*

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10-09-2012, 09:07 AM
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
(10-09-2012 07:54 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Something can be a property without being a fundamental property. Heat and more specifically temperature can be a coarse-grained property of a compound object that is composed of fundamental particles. The "temperature" of a molecule or set of molecules ends up being I think an expression of the electromagnetic field between the charged particles that make up the molecules - protons an electrons where the proton at least is made up of more fundamental particles.

great logic and conveyance of the differences of the systems observational properties;

a).. one summarizes
b)... one at least renders the em as the 'cause'
Quote:I'm reminded of the presuppositional apologetic argument that you can't have absolute morality without a god. Here you seem to say that you can't have absolute properties without dealing with those properties at a fundamental particle level. Well, isn't it enough for a property to be useful? Isn't that enough to describe it as being a property or a characteristic of the thing you are describing?
ie... for 'the steam engine era' it is

how long was the world flat?

Quote:Heat and heat flow are useful descriptions, so in that sense they are useful properties of object.
absolutely but not the causal description.

to be fair in that respect, i can and will agree.

Quote: There is a scale at which they cease to be useful descriptions and in that sense you could describe them as being imaginary, transitory, and not absolute. I think you'll find that they are properties nevertheless, that hold at useful scales. Very few phenomena in nature are yet able to be accurately modelled based on fundamental particles and forces alone.
yes and no.

the property of em, entanglement, is your gravity. ie.... word (these words) are entangling mass (affecting action; cause). The property DOES exist on many more fronts that people observe.

Quote: There are larger scale properties that in theory simply flow out of the fundamental interactions, but in practice are much easier to calculate and make predications about if we ignore the fundamental and look to what we can directly measure and observe.
but the galaxies DO NOT ROTATE as the math predicts.

So that analogy is a bonafide failure.
Quote:So in the end whether heat is a property or not is a question of semantics. I would define property or attribute as being something that is useful in describing a thing that it applies to, either in describing its current state or in describing how its state will change under particular conditions. So temperature in particular would seem to be a useful property that I can state for myself as an object. I have a particular temperature, and in fact I need to exist within a particular temperature range. The importance of temperature as a property at the scale of you and me is in fact hard to understate Smile


i re-heat my coffee, with a microwave. To know what the wavelength that causes which thresholds for each molecule is the new frontier. Heat is the old.

Use the analogy: heating a cup of coffee with a flame is like washing your windshield with niagra falls.
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10-09-2012, 09:22 AM (This post was last modified: 10-09-2012 09:26 AM by Phaedrus.)
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
Bishadi, entanglement doesn't mean what you think it means. Gravity and electromagnetism don't entangle anything. Quantum entanglement is a use of a loophole in quantum mechanics that sets up a superposition regarding the state of two particles such that a change in one particle will cause a change in another particle, without those particles needing to interact again. Gravity and electromagnetism isn't involved, although I guess you could theoretically set up an entangled pair using these forces... not as easy as using light though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous...conversion


Anyway, modeling the actions of each individual molecule or particle in a system is not necessary for the vast, vast majority of applications. What's the point of modeling every molecule in a cup of coffee? Now this approach is useful in certain fields like molecular biology and applied catalytic chemistry, but guess what, they've been doing what you describe since they first had the computers capable of it. At the fundamental level, everything is the interaction of the four fundamental forces and the basic particles. Yes. We know this and have for decades. It's not some magical new paradigm.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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10-09-2012, 09:38 AM
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
(10-09-2012 09:22 AM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Bishadi, entanglement doesn't mean what you think it means. Gravity and electromagnetism don't entangle anything. Quantum entanglement is a use of a loophole in quantum mechanics that sets up a superposition regarding the state of two particles such that a change in one particle will cause a change in another particle, without those particles needing to interact again.



loop hole

sorry, 'spooky action at a distance'

Some folk dont have a clue what the boys were working on.

Quote:Gravity and electromagnetism isn't involved, although I guess you could theoretically set up an entangled pair using these forces... not as easy as using light though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous...conversion


sorry, you best get with the reading program as you are not current

here are just a few kids working on it

Gravity as Quantum Entanglement Force

Jae-Weon Lee, Hyeong-Chan Kim, Jungjai Lee

(Submitted on 24 Feb 2010)

We conjecture that quantum entanglement of matter and vacuum in the universe tend to increase with time, like entropy, and there is an effective force called quantum entanglement force associated with this tendency. It is also suggested that gravity and dark energy are types of the quantum entanglement force, similar to Verlinde's entropic force. If the entanglement entropy of the universe saturates the Bekenstein bound, this gives holographic dark energy with the equation of state consistent with current observational data. This connection between quantum information and gravity gives some new insights on the origin of gravity, dark energy, the holographic principle and arrow of time

http://arxiv.org/abs/1002.4568



Quote:Anyway, modeling the actions of each individual molecule or particle in a system is not necessary for the vast, vast majority of applications.
i agree

Quote: What's the point of modeling every molecule in a cup of coffee?
i didnt. I pointed out that 'heating' the cup is done more efficently, with using the 'correct' model. (it's a light thing)

Quote:Now this approach is useful in certain fields like molecular biology and applied catalytic chemistry,

aye..... and the argument began in a debate on 'evolution' . And if you dont comprehend 'energy' at the molecular level, then how ya gonna comprehend an evolution of biological systems, to the molecular level.



Quote: but guess what, they've been doing what you describe since they first had the computers capable of it. At the fundamental level, everything is the interaction of the four fundamental forces and the basic particles. Yes. We know this and have for decades. It's not some magical new paradigm.

i know it aint magic.

just like a living person aint an electrical system of and and or gates like a processor.

"We" are light upon mass.
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10-09-2012, 10:06 AM
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
Quote:"We" are light upon mass.

And the woo woo starts again.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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10-09-2012, 10:34 AM
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
(10-09-2012 10:06 AM)Phaedrus Wrote:  
Quote:"We" are light upon mass.

And the woo woo starts again.

Neils Bohr was a brilliant Danish physicist who came to dominate the world of atomic and nuclear physics during the first half of the twentieth century. Bohr suggested that the planetary model could be saved if one new assumption were made: certain "special states of motion" of the electron, corresponding to different orbital radii, would not result in radiation, and could therefore persist indefinitely without the electron falling into the nucleus. Specifically, Bohr postulated that the angular momentum of the electron, mvr (the mass and angular velocity of the electron and in an orbit of radius r) is restricted to values that are integral multiples of h/2π. The radius of one of these allowed Bohr orbits is given by



in which h is Planck's constant, m is the mass of the electron, v is the orbital velocity, and n can have only the integer values 1, 2, 3, etc. The most revolutionary aspect of this assumption was its use of the variable integer n; this was the first application of the concept of the quantum number to matter. The larger the value of n, the larger the radius of the electron orbit, and the greater the potential energy of the electron.



As the electron moves to orbits of increasing radius, it does so in opposition to the restoring force due to the positive nucleus, and its potential energy is thereby raised. This is entirely analogous to the increase in potential energy that occurs when any mechanical system moves against a restoring force— as, for example, when a rubber band is stretched or a weight is lifted.

Thus what Bohr was saying, in effect, is that the atom can exist only in certain discrete energy states: the energy of the atom is quantized. Bohr noted that this quantization nicely explained the observed emission spectrum of the hydrogen atom. The electron is normally in its smallest allowed orbit, corresponding to n = 1; upon excitation in an electrical discharge or by ultraviolet light, the atom absorbs energy and the electron gets promoted to higher quantum levels. These higher excited states of the atom are unstable, so after a very short time (around 10—9 sec) the electron falls into lower orbits and finally into the innermost one, which corresponds to the atom's ground state. The energy lost on each jump is given off as a photon, and the frequency of this light provides a direct experimental measurement of the difference in the energies of the two states, according to the Planck-Einstein relationship e = hν



if you comprehend that, he said the same thing!
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10-09-2012, 10:46 AM
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
I would like to see bishadi sum up his ideas in 5 sentences max, but preferably 1 just to force him to say his point out in the open. All of this random dipping into other things is a little confusing.

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

You cannot successfully determine beforehand which side of the bread to butter.
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10-09-2012, 10:52 AM
RE: Heat is the average of the randomized motion
(10-09-2012 10:46 AM)Xinoftruden Wrote:  I would like to see bishadi sum up his ideas in 5 sentences max, but preferably 1 just to force him to say his point out in the open. All of this random dipping into other things is a little confusing.
i did summarize, we in for a paradigm shift

that last post was showing this forum that the ph, has no idea what the physic he likes so much even mean, 'to the letter'
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