Heaven and The Problem of Evil
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13-12-2013, 03:39 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(13-12-2013 11:58 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If we can get the good with no bad, then why have the bad?
So we may know that good is good. When there is no bad there is no good.

(13-12-2013 11:58 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If we can learn about God through observation instead of actual suffering, why can't we just be shown a horror film and then let into heaven?
Point of suffering is not to learn about God/Gods but to become one of them.
Our Gods know about evil that is why They are one of them(the other gods) also.

(13-12-2013 11:58 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Why is the notion of punishing wrongdoing even necessary? If we can know God without ever having to have been born, then free will is not necessary to achieve God's desire for deeper relationships.
Why do I need an opportunity to make choices? A: So I MAY know for MYSELF what kind of choices I will do. I don't want to rely on somebody to tell me what MY choices would be. I want to know it MYSELF.
God gives us this opportunity to know ouselves.
And what is punishment? Punishment is = absence of certain blessing.
If child obeys he watches TV. If he doesn't he can not watch TV for a while.

If I do not make wrong choices God can NOT punish me.
If I do NOT make RIGHT choices God can NOT give me rewards. To become like God is a REWARD.
So, if there is no free will or better say "MORAL AGENCY" there is no punishment and there is no REWARDSSad

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13-12-2013, 03:53 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(13-12-2013 03:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  God gives us this opportunity to know ouselves.
And what is punishment? Punishment is = absence of certain blessing.
If child obeys he watches TV. If he doesn't he can not watch TV for a while.

If I do not make wrong choices God can NOT punish me.
If I do NOT make RIGHT choices God can NOT give me reward.
So, if there is no free will or better MORAL AGENCY there is no punishment and there is no REWARDSSad

You are trying to explain an all-powerful god in the context of this world. It is not possible.

1. An all-powerful god can do anything;
2. An all-powerful god does not have to teach, or show, or present evil, to make it understood. He could simply will it to be understood;
3. An all-powerful god is not bound to the rules of a universe he created;
4. An all-powerful god does not need punishment as everything would happen as he wished it;
5. To say an all-powerful god needs to teach, or punish, or accomplish something, negates the 'all-powerful' attribute;
6. Since god is all-powerful, suffering is included by choice yet is completely unnecessary by the definition of all-powerful;

I don't think you truly believe your god is all powerful; you wouldn't be so diligent in trying to explain his actions if he was. As soon as you use words like 'has to' or 'needs' or 'wants,' you are referring to a being with limitations. I would never worship the god you have described. Drinking Beverage

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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13-12-2013, 03:55 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
Alla (Allah? Laugh out load )

punishment and reward are fine, as long as they are in proportion to the good or bad deed that earned them. There is no deed worthy of eternal punishment, just as there is no deed worthy of eternal reward.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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13-12-2013, 04:05 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(13-12-2013 03:55 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Alla (Allah? Laugh out load )
AllaSmile

(13-12-2013 03:55 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  punishment and reward are fine, as long as they are in proportion to the good or bad deed that earned them. There is no deed worthy of eternal punishment, just as there is no deed worthy of eternal reward.
Kind deed, compassionate deed is worthy of eternal reward.
There is only one deed that is worthy of eternal punishment. But I won't tell you which one because you will not get itSmile

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13-12-2013, 05:34 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(13-12-2013 03:55 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  There is no deed worthy of eternal punishment, just as there is no deed worthy of eternal reward.

You're right, there's no single deed that is worthy of eternal reward. That would imply it's based on merit, when Christianity is about the grace of God, not the earning of our merit. You can't 'good deed' yourself into heaven.
What an eternity in heaven and hell comes down to is our pursuit (or lack of pursuit) of God. The choice is simple: do you want to live in the presence of God or not? The choice isn't forced, but entirely a matter of our free will. The big point though is what exists in God's presence and what exists outside of it. With God is relationship, love, grace, forgiveness, etc. Hell is a separation from that and a consequence is that you feel all the force and torment of that.
Now if we for a moment boil it all down to this point- do you want to spend an eternity with God or not- and acknowledge it's a completely free choice, my question is: why should it bother an atheist that if God exists and they reject him in this life, their choice carries over into the afterlife? Why resent the free will given to them to choose or reject God and expect almost that God is going to violate their free will to make them come into His presence against their will?
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13-12-2013, 06:10 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(13-12-2013 05:34 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  
(13-12-2013 03:55 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  There is no deed worthy of eternal punishment, just as there is no deed worthy of eternal reward.

You're right, there's no single deed that is worthy of eternal reward. That would imply it's based on merit, when Christianity is about the grace of God, not the earning of our merit. You can't 'good deed' yourself into heaven.
What an eternity in heaven and hell comes down to is our pursuit (or lack of pursuit) of God. The choice is simple: do you want to live in the presence of God or not? The choice isn't forced, but entirely a matter of our free will. The big point though is what exists in God's presence and what exists outside of it. With God is relationship, love, grace, forgiveness, etc. Hell is a separation from that and a consequence is that you feel all the force and torment of that.
Now if we for a moment boil it all down to this point- do you want to spend an eternity with God or not- and acknowledge it's a completely free choice, my question is: why should it bother an atheist that if God exists and they reject him in this life, their choice carries over into the afterlife? Why resent the free will given to them to choose or reject God and expect almost that God is going to violate their free will to make them come into His presence against their will?

You do realize that you're just making all of that up, don't you?

There is absolutely no evidence that any of that is true. None. Zilch. Zip. Nada.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-12-2013, 06:16 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(13-12-2013 05:34 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  Now if we for a moment boil it all down to this point- do you want to spend an eternity with God or not- and acknowledge it's a completely free choice, my question is: why should it bother an atheist that if God exists and they reject him in this life, their choice carries over into the afterlife? Why resent the free will given to them to choose or reject God and expect almost that God is going to violate their free will to make them come into His presence against their will?

Let's touch that up, since you're statement assumes we all get exposed to the same religion:
Why resent the free will given to them to choose or reject dozens of Gods and expect almost that one of those dozens of Gods is going to violate their free will to make them come into His/Her/Its presence against their will?

So grow up believing in the wrong god and you go to hell. And these dozens of gods are just going to hang out behind the scenes, showing themselves to only a lucky few. Maybe a few of them will inspire some contradictory scriptures for us to argue over. Yeah... I have a small problem with that concept.

Key word is concept.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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13-12-2013, 06:20 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(13-12-2013 03:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  When there is no bad there is no good.

Ridiculous. Know what's good? Chocolate. Know what's better? My Gwynnies. Heart

Never needed to reject chocolate to love my Gwynnies. Dodgy

(13-12-2013 05:34 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  Now if we for a moment boil it all down to this point- do you want to spend an eternity with God or not- and acknowledge it's a completely free choice, my question is: why should it bother an atheist that if God exists and they reject him in this life, their choice carries over into the afterlife?

God doesn't bother me - you bother me. You trying to tell me how to believe, or what to believe, or why to believe, that's what bothers me. Isn't it part of your doctrine to "let go and let God?" Well, why don't you try letting go?



In other news, alla sudden, there's too many fucking theists on this board.

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13-12-2013, 06:35 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(13-12-2013 06:20 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(13-12-2013 03:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  When there is no bad there is no good.

Ridiculous. Know what's good? Chocolate. Know what's better? My Gwynnies. Heart

Never needed to reject chocolate to love my Gwynnies. Dodgy

(13-12-2013 05:34 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  Now if we for a moment boil it all down to this point- do you want to spend an eternity with God or not- and acknowledge it's a completely free choice, my question is: why should it bother an atheist that if God exists and they reject him in this life, their choice carries over into the afterlife?

God doesn't bother me - you bother me. You trying to tell me how to believe, or what to believe, or why to believe, that's what bothers me. Isn't it part of your doctrine to "let go and let God?" Well, why don't you try letting go?



In other news, alla sudden, there's too many fucking theists on this board.


Very. Well. Said! ThumbsupThumbsupThumbsup

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13-12-2013, 07:34 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(13-12-2013 06:16 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(13-12-2013 05:34 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  Now if we for a moment boil it all down to this point- do you want to spend an eternity with God or not- and acknowledge it's a completely free choice, my question is: why should it bother an atheist that if God exists and they reject him in this life, their choice carries over into the afterlife? Why resent the free will given to them to choose or reject God and expect almost that God is going to violate their free will to make them come into His presence against their will?

Let's touch that up, since you're statement assumes we all get exposed to the same religion:
Why resent the free will given to them to choose or reject dozens of Gods and expect almost that one of those dozens of Gods is going to violate their free will to make them come into His/Her/Its presence against their will?

So grow up believing in the wrong god and you go to hell. And these dozens of gods are just going to hang out behind the scenes, showing themselves to only a lucky few. Maybe a few of them will inspire some contradictory scriptures for us to argue over. Yeah... I have a small problem with that concept.

Key word is concept.

Wouldn't it be hilarious if the God(s) who greets us in the afterlife are the one(s) we weren't expecting? Like from some obscure religion that we never even heard of. The jury is out folks, who says any currently active religion has to be the right one?
*that's rhetorical no one say anything about prophets of god(s) you know who you are...

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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