Heaven and The Problem of Evil
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13-12-2013, 08:02 PM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2013 08:09 PM by Yasmin.)
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(13-12-2013 06:20 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  God doesn't bother me - you bother me. You trying to tell me how to believe, or what to believe, or why to believe, that's what bothers me. Isn't it part of your doctrine to "let go and let God?" Well, why don't you try letting go?

Well I'm sorry I bother you (I've never gone out of my way to try to), but I don't think what you're accusing me of is true. If people phrase a theist question in a Christian context, I'll answer it within that context. And considering that a lot of what's said on this forum is along the lines of 'stupid theists need to stop thinking...' I'd say the religious aren't the only ones concerned with trying to alter people's opinions. If I had targeted you specifically you might be right, but stating my opinion is not automatically a criticism of yours nor is it trying to tell you what you do/ should believe.

That said,I've never heard of 'let go and let God' before you decided you bring it up and now that I have, is actually in my opinion pretty theologically shoddy and not part of my doctrine at all. Wouldn't your trying to slip that in as an assumption be actually falling into the trap what you've just accused me of doing?
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13-12-2013, 08:36 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(13-12-2013 05:34 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  why should it bother an atheist that if God exists and they reject him in this life, their choice carries over into the afterlife?

(13-12-2013 08:02 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  Well I'm sorry I bother you (I've never gone out of my way to try to), but I don't think what you're accusing me of is true.

*Emphasis added. You are the one to come to an atheist forum, and I am an atheist; therefore you certainty did go out of your way to bother me.

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13-12-2013, 08:42 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(13-12-2013 03:53 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(13-12-2013 03:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  God gives us this opportunity to know ouselves.
And what is punishment? Punishment is = absence of certain blessing.
If child obeys he watches TV. If he doesn't he can not watch TV for a while.

If I do not make wrong choices God can NOT punish me.
If I do NOT make RIGHT choices God can NOT give me reward.
So, if there is no free will or better MORAL AGENCY there is no punishment and there is no REWARDSSad

You are trying to explain an all-powerful god in the context of this world. It is not possible.

1. An all-powerful god can do anything;
Yes. He can do anything accept if it is wrong/evil action. As soon as God do wrong/evil thing He can not be God anymore.
(13-12-2013 03:53 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  2. An all-powerful god does not have to teach, or show, or present evil, to make it understood. He could simply will it to be understood;
Really? How? I wonder why you said this. You probably believe in something that doesn't exist in this world - magic.
(13-12-2013 03:53 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  3. An all-powerful god is not bound to the rules of a universe he created;
Let's assume that it is true. But He is bound by the laws of the universe that He didn't create.
(13-12-2013 03:53 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  4. An all-powerful god does not need punishment as everything would happen as he wished it;
In His universe, may be this is the case. But He is not all-powerful outside of His universe.
(13-12-2013 03:53 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  5. To say an all-powerful god needs to teach, or punish, or accomplish something, negates the 'all-powerful' attribute;
6. Since god is all-powerful, suffering is included by choice yet is completely unnecessary by the definition of all-powerful;
I don't understand why?

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13-12-2013, 09:19 PM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2013 09:23 PM by Yasmin.)
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(13-12-2013 08:36 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(13-12-2013 05:34 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  why should it bother an atheist that if God exists and they reject him in this life, their choice carries over into the afterlife?

*Emphasis added. You are the one to come to an atheist forum, and I am an atheist; therefore you certainty did go out of your way to bother me.

It seems I can't win, can I? No. If I stay on Christian forums and associate only with people who believe what I do, then it's perceived as being close-minded, isolated, and never being willing to rationally discuss ideas. If I make the effort to come to a site such as this, to hear other's opinions, to give mine, and do my best to engage in a respectful manner, then I should stick to my own crowd, and leave you all to never-ending self-affirmation.

I didn't go out of my way to bother you, I've come to interact with other ideas and opinions. If they happen to disagree with each other, it's certainly not from trying to attack anyone or bother them. And I don't know what other forums you yourself visit, but there are certainly those on here who boast of how they've gone to Christian forums with the express purpose to 'bother' them. Why then take offence at the opposite, even if it was my intention (which, I hope I've been clear in saying, is not)

Houseofcantor, I'm guessing there are going to be few things on which we agree. But that doesn't mean neither of us have the right to say it, as long as we're respectful to each other. Smile
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13-12-2013, 09:31 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(13-12-2013 09:19 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  ...and leave you all to never-ending self-affirmation.

...as long as we're respectful to each other. Smile

Nope, no conflict there. Angel

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13-12-2013, 09:41 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(13-12-2013 09:31 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(13-12-2013 09:19 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  ...and leave you all to never-ending self-affirmation.

...as long as we're respectful to each other. Smile

Nope, no conflict there. Angel
Yeah, yeah, I know what your're saying but I hope you're just pretending not to understand me. But I'll repeat, because I'm stuck at home and bored Smile

Any group that never really admits or is openly hostile to outside viewpoints or discussion inevitably gets stuck in a loop of self-affirmation. Same ideas, same viewpoints, same dynamics, same conclusions. Not exactly the environment for rational discussion, especially for a forum with a name like this one.

I'll be as respectful to you as I hope you would be to me, but if part of a 'thinking atheist' forum is to not invite opposing viewpoints, then yes it is in danger of being stuck in that loop.

So no, unless you're in favour of taking quotes out of context, or against the concept of respectful disagreement, no conflict there at all Angel
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14-12-2013, 09:24 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(13-12-2013 03:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-12-2013 11:58 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If we can get the good with no bad, then why have the bad?
So we may know that good is good. When there is no bad there is no good.

Do you have any proof that is the case? If I build a 15-story building next to a 5-story building, it is taller than the 5-story building. Now, if I tear the shorter of the two down, it's still 15-stories. I won't have anything to compare it to, but it's still the same thing and has the same qualities.

Even if what you say is true, how much bad to you have to know to appreciate good? Some people are exposed to more bad than others.


(13-12-2013 03:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-12-2013 11:58 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If we can learn about God through observation instead of actual suffering, why can't we just be shown a horror film and then let into heaven?
Point of suffering is not to learn about God/Gods but to become one of them.
Our Gods know about evil that is why They are one of them(the other gods) also.

That was a response to AlphaMale, so it won't make sense in context of your beliefs. I don't believe it, either, but I'm trying to figure out why free will is necessary in his paradigm of deeper relationships.


(13-12-2013 03:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-12-2013 11:58 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Why is the notion of punishing wrongdoing even necessary? If we can know God without ever having to have been born, then free will is not necessary to achieve God's desire for deeper relationships.
Why do I need an opportunity to make choices? A: So I MAY know for MYSELF what kind of choices I will do. I don't want to rely on somebody to tell me what MY choices would be. I want to know it MYSELF.
God gives us this opportunity to know ouselves.

I'm unsure why you would need this be be able to know yourself. It sounds like a naked assertion.


(13-12-2013 03:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  And what is punishment? Punishment is = absence of certain blessing.
If child obeys he watches TV. If he doesn't he can not watch TV for a while.

That's one way to punish someone, but you could also just inflict suffering on them. That's not an absence of blessing, unless you're defining "not being made to suffer" as a blessing. If that's the case, your definition is circular.


(13-12-2013 03:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  If I do not make wrong choices God can NOT punish me.
If I do NOT make RIGHT choices God can NOT give me rewards. To become like God is a REWARD.
So, if there is no free will or better say "MORAL AGENCY" there is no punishment and there is no REWARDSSad

What do you mean he can't? He's all powerful, isn't he? Did you ever read the book of Job?
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14-12-2013, 02:33 PM (This post was last modified: 14-12-2013 02:39 PM by Alla.)
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(14-12-2013 09:24 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(13-12-2013 03:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  So we may know that good is good. When there is no bad there is no good.
Do you have any proof that is the case? If I build a 15-story building next to a 5-story building, it is taller than the 5-story building. Now, if I tear the shorter of the two down, it's still 15-stories. I won't have anything to compare it to, but it's still the same thing and has the same qualities.
If you never had any kind of pain in your life you would never think about how good it is to live without pain. But as soon as you feel pain you KNOW how GOOD it is when there is no pain. You even start to appreciate moments when you have no pain. You know that pain is evil/bad. And no pain is good.

(14-12-2013 09:24 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Even if what you say is true, how much bad to you have to know to appreciate good?
It really doesn't matter. But I think we all have more than enough.
(14-12-2013 09:24 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Some people are exposed to more bad than others.
We are different. Each one of us is unique and special. We have different talants, different weaknesses, different blessings and different trials.

(14-12-2013 09:24 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(13-12-2013 03:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  Point of suffering is not to learn about God/Gods but to become one of them.
Our Gods know about evil that is why They are one of them(the other gods) also.

That was a response to AlphaMale, so it won't make sense in context of your beliefs. I don't believe it, either, but I'm trying to figure out why free will is necessary in his paradigm of deeper relationships.
We don't need free will(moral agency) to have deeper relationship with God. We need moral agency for this:
to become like God/to become Gods.
Only when there is moral agency it is possible to CHOOSE on OUR OWN to become Gods/like Gods.
God wants us to become like Him but He can NOT force us to become like Him.
I have to decide if I want to be like God. You have to decide if you want to become like God.
Why do we need evil to become like God?
A: when I see hungry I can learn how to be compassionate. Compassion is virtue that Gods have.
when I see bad guy hurts innocent guy I can learn how to do justice. God is Justice.
when somebody hurts me I can learn how to forgive. Forgiveness is virtue that Gods have.
When I have trial I am learning to be patient. Patience is virtue that Gods have.
When bad things happen I can exercise faith. Faith is what all Gods have. They do everything by faith.

(14-12-2013 09:24 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(13-12-2013 03:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  Why do I need an opportunity to make choices? A: So I MAY know for MYSELF what kind of choices I will do. I don't want to rely on somebody to tell me what MY choices would be. I want to know it MYSELF.
God gives us this opportunity to know ouselves.

I'm unsure why you would need this be be able to know yourself. It sounds like a naked assertion.
Why? Because I want EVIDENCE. Isn't what atheists always want to have? EVIDENCE? Why do you want evidence? Because you want to know for sure. That is our(intelligent beings) nature.
And we have the RIGHT to KNOW for OURSELVES.


(14-12-2013 09:24 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(13-12-2013 03:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  And what is punishment? Punishment is = absence of certain blessing.
If child obeys he watches TV. If he doesn't he can not watch TV for a while.

That's one way to punish someone, but you could also just inflict suffering on them. That's not an absence of blessing, unless you're defining "not being made to suffer" as a blessing. If that's the case, your definition is circular.
Absence of suffering is a blessing. Suffering - absence of that blessing.

(14-12-2013 09:24 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(13-12-2013 03:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  If I do not make wrong choices God can NOT punish me.
If I do NOT make RIGHT choices God can NOT give me rewards. To become like God is a REWARD.
So, if there is no free will or better say "MORAL AGENCY" there is no punishment and there is no REWARDSSad
What do you mean he can't? He's all powerful, isn't he?
He is all powerful relatively to His creations. But He is not all powerful relatively to His God.
God Son/Jesus/Jehovah is not all powerful relatively to His God and His Father. He ALWAYS does His God's will/His Father's will
But He is all powerful relatively to us/His Father's children

(14-12-2013 09:24 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Did you ever read the book of Job?
What about it?
I mean, yes, I read it.

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I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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14-12-2013, 03:02 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
Somehow Alla reminds me of Absols. Consider
Just putting that out there.

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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14-12-2013, 03:28 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(13-12-2013 09:41 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  Any group that never really admits or is openly hostile to outside viewpoints or discussion inevitably gets stuck in a loop of self-affirmation. Same ideas, same viewpoints, same dynamics, same conclusions. Not exactly the environment for rational discussion, especially for a forum with a name like this one.

Try some of the other atheist message boards - you'll get shown out the door quickly, just like atheists get shown the door on christian message boards.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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