Heaven and The Problem of Evil
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
14-12-2013, 03:53 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
Well, I just spent a bunch of time reading in this thread and this is what I came away with:

God is not benevolent.

God is not in control of his creation, he watches it like it was a movie.

God is jealous, unjust and wrathful.

Why anyone would want to worship such a flawed and cruel creature, I do not understand - the only reason to do so would be fear, the old fire and brimstone.

What else I came away with is that god created evil so that we know good.

So I guess that is why he behaves in an evil manner, so that we know the difference when he is nice?

What is the importance of knowing good and evil? Wouldn't it be much better to do away with evil altogether and just be good?

This whole thing makes no sense and goes against every humane bone in my body. Most atheists are better than god it seems - most of us are endowed with great amounts of empathy. God seems to be lacking in that department.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-12-2013, 05:48 PM (This post was last modified: 14-12-2013 05:56 PM by Monster_Riffs.)
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
The two post hoc rationalisations that you have pointed out here are the key to the whole conundrum. ... I look at religion as I assume many on here do as a man made construct. It's first purpose was as a crack at explaining things, like creation, life, why we are here, natural disasters etc; ... After that it was tben expounded upon by some clever little so and so's as a means of control. Either through perceived superioroity (I have all of the answers, I understand this book written by the creator) ... Or through fear, (wrathful God, Hell). Like any 'good idea' (for those who had control at the time, will have seen religion as a good idea) it gets developed over time. The persuasive arguments to follow God which worked well on a lot of people were promises of eternal life, love from a superior being etc; but that didn't work on everyone. So the other side of religion progressed. The tbreats of a jealous and punishing God or being cast down to hell.

The two types of motivation to follow God essentially came from the same source, church leaders. The two different and distinct sets of motivation caused contradictory problems as pointed out by the OP. So the post hoc explanations became an inevitable necessity. The reasons for the vagueness is simply because it was madr up.

That's just my opinion anyway.

Edit: totally messed up the formatting typing lengthy posts on my mobile... sorry Smile

I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Monster_Riffs's post
14-12-2013, 08:53 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(14-12-2013 03:53 PM)Dom Wrote:  Well, I just spent a bunch of time reading in this thread and this is what I came away with:

God is not benevolent.

God is not in control of his creation, he watches it like it was a movie.

God is jealous, unjust and wrathful.

Why anyone would want to worship such a flawed and cruel creature, I do not understand - the only reason to do so would be fear, the old fire and brimstone.

What else I came away with is that god created evil so that we know good.

So I guess that is why he behaves in an evil manner, so that we know the difference when he is nice?

What is the importance of knowing good and evil? Wouldn't it be much better to do away with evil altogether and just be good?

This whole thing makes no sense and goes against every humane bone in my body. Most atheists are better than god it seems - most of us are endowed with great amounts of empathy. God seems to be lacking in that department.
nobody can do away with evil. Evil is eternal. Evil will always exist. And good is eternal and will always exist. It must be an OPPOSITION in all things.
If there is no evil there is no good but every action is neutral.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-12-2013, 08:56 PM (This post was last modified: 14-12-2013 11:22 PM by Adrianime.)
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
Hi Yasmin, sorry I didn't see that you wrote something to me until just now. I'll respond your question from my perspective. Actually I've re-read your question a few times and I don't quite understand what you are asking.

I will break it down and respond to each section I suppose:

Quote:why should it bother an atheist that if God exists and they reject him in this life, their choice carries over into the afterlife?
Well, I personally am a hard atheist who does not believe in an afterlife. Meaning that I think when I die I will cease to exist (as in I will no longer think, feel, experience [anything], or dream), and that I believe that there is not, and never was a god in existence. If you mean, why do I care about how believers believe? I care because it's a slave mentality, and it detracts from this life and from self worth. Also, the extreme prejudice that many religious beliefs give rise to, is worth speaking up against.
Quote:Why resent the free will given to them to choose or reject God and expect almost that God is going to violate their free will to make them come into His presence against their will?
I really don't understand this question. As an atheist I don't expect a god to do anything any more than I expect a ghost,goblin, or santa claus to do anything. I have no expectations of or resentment towards something that does not exist.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-12-2013, 08:49 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(14-12-2013 03:28 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(13-12-2013 09:41 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  Any group that never really admits or is openly hostile to outside viewpoints or discussion inevitably gets stuck in a loop of self-affirmation. Same ideas, same viewpoints, same dynamics, same conclusions. Not exactly the environment for rational discussion, especially for a forum with a name like this one.

Try some of the other atheist message boards - you'll get shown out the door quickly, just like atheists get shown the door on christian message boards.

This is true. I went to Worthy because they said non-believers were welcome, and I prided myself on following their ToS perfectly; even better than many of their regular members. After about a month, the mods started creatively interpreting the ToS to say that I was breaking it or pushing the boundaries. I left before the imminent banning.

They even made a point to say that politely worded arguments that could show God doesn't exist were actually worse than the vitriol that they explicitly forbid.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-12-2013, 08:55 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(14-12-2013 02:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(14-12-2013 09:24 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Do you have any proof that is the case? If I build a 15-story building next to a 5-story building, it is taller than the 5-story building. Now, if I tear the shorter of the two down, it's still 15-stories. I won't have anything to compare it to, but it's still the same thing and has the same qualities.
If you never had any kind of pain in your life you would never think about how good it is to live without pain. But as soon as you feel pain you KNOW how GOOD it is when there is no pain. You even start to appreciate moments when you have no pain. You know that pain is evil/bad. And no pain is good.

So, getting good and bad is better than neutrality? Does it average out? If getting X bad and X good the same as getting nothing (on average)? Can you get more good for less evil, making a net good?

If the answer to the last question is "yes", why can't we have less suffering?


(14-12-2013 02:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(14-12-2013 09:24 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I'm unsure why you would need this be be able to know yourself. It sounds like a naked assertion.
Why? Because I want EVIDENCE. Isn't what atheists always want to have? EVIDENCE? Why do you want evidence? Because you want to know for sure. That is our(intelligent beings) nature.
And we have the RIGHT to KNOW for OURSELVES.

I'm not sure how this addresses what I said. Your assertions are still circular and lack evidence. Well, they lack evidence that doesn't require you to assume a priori that your conclusion is true.


(14-12-2013 02:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(14-12-2013 09:24 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  That's one way to punish someone, but you could also just inflict suffering on them. That's not an absence of blessing, unless you're defining "not being made to suffer" as a blessing. If that's the case, your definition is circular.
Absence of suffering is a blessing. Suffering - absence of that blessing.

So God blesses us by not hurting us. This is you saying that a neutral action is somehow laudable because it could have been worse. Literally every second I decide not to murder someone, I'm blessing them.

I don't buy it.


(14-12-2013 02:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(14-12-2013 09:24 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Did you ever read the book of Job?
What about it?
I mean, yes, I read it.

You said "If I do not make wrong choices God can NOT punish me."

That totally happened to Job.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes RobbyPants's post
15-12-2013, 08:58 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(14-12-2013 05:48 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  The two post hoc rationalisations that you have pointed out here are the key to the whole conundrum. ... I look at religion as I assume many on here do as a man made construct. It's first purpose was as a crack at explaining things, like creation, life, why we are here, natural disasters etc; ... After that it was tben expounded upon by some clever little so and so's as a means of control. Either through perceived superioroity (I have all of the answers, I understand this book written by the creator) ... Or through fear, (wrathful God, Hell). Like any 'good idea' (for those who had control at the time, will have seen religion as a good idea) it gets developed over time. The persuasive arguments to follow God which worked well on a lot of people were promises of eternal life, love from a superior being etc; but that didn't work on everyone. So the other side of religion progressed. The tbreats of a jealous and punishing God or being cast down to hell.

The two types of motivation to follow God essentially came from the same source, church leaders. The two different and distinct sets of motivation caused contradictory problems as pointed out by the OP. So the post hoc explanations became an inevitable necessity. The reasons for the vagueness is simply because it was madr up.

That's just my opinion anyway.

Edit: totally messed up the formatting typing lengthy posts on my mobile... sorry Smile

I think you're exactly right. The apparent contradictory nature of the whole thing highlights the way it slowly evolved.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-12-2013, 09:06 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(15-12-2013 08:55 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  So, getting good and bad is better than neutrality? Does it average out? If getting X bad and X good the same as getting nothing (on average)? Can you get more good for less evil, making a net good?
It is better to know good and evil then neutral. Neutral will not get you anywhere.
Progression is not possible. When there is bad and you overcome it then you become stronger or wiser and this is progression.
When there is illness and you find a way to fight it you progress - become more intelligent and more experienced. Progression is better than no progression.
It is always good to have/to chose what is better.

(15-12-2013 08:55 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If the answer to the last question is "yes", why can't we have less suffering?
1)may be we do have less than what is available.
2)God is all-knowing. In order to become like Him we also have to become all-knowing. It is great to become like God. Being God gives you endless opportunities.

(15-12-2013 08:55 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I'm not sure how this addresses what I said. Your assertions are still circular and lack evidence. Well, they lack evidence that doesn't require you to assume a priori that your conclusion is true.
If we didn't have opportunity to come here and to be tested we would never knew what our choices would be. Even God wouldn't know. He knows FOR SURE only after we make our choices. Do you remember WHEN God KNEW FOR SURE about Abraham's readiness to obey even the hardest commandment? God said: "NOW I know that Abraham will obey laws" only AFTER Abraham almost killed his son.
There is a law: in order to become like Father/to become Gods you have TO PROVE that you are worthy.
(15-12-2013 08:55 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(14-12-2013 02:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  Absence of suffering is a blessing. Suffering - absence of that blessing.
So God blesses us by not hurting us.
No, God blesses us by giving us something good. He punishes us by withholding something good.
For example, if you keep His commandments you ALWAYS have His Spirit with you. If you don't Spirit leaves you. You can not have His influence any more.
The best blessing that God gives us is this: we can be in His presence and we can have influence of Holy Ghost.
Curse(punishment) is this: we can not be in His presence and we can not have influence of Holy Ghost.

(15-12-2013 08:55 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  This is you saying that a neutral action is somehow laudable because it could have been worse. Literally every second I decide not to murder someone, I'm blessing them.

I don't buy it.
Neither do I.
As you see above I explained about blessing and curse.
If you remember from the Scriptures(for example Bible) every time when God's covenant people obeyed laws of God He was with them, they had new revelations and His influence and He guided them.
When they broke the covenants they were CUT OFF from God's presence(curse) and His revelations and influence. Then bad things happened to them. God warned them many times before they were cut off about what can happen when they are on their own. They were weak without their God.

(15-12-2013 08:55 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  That totally happened to Job.
Job was not punished. we can see from this story that bad things can happen to good people( test). But Job was not cut off from God(blessing)

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-12-2013, 12:28 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(12-12-2013 01:48 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(12-12-2013 01:16 PM)viole Wrote:  Now, take the same judge. He decides to let his own son be tortured and, well, sort of getting killed so that the killer can go free.

I don't think that many people would consider that to be good of the judge to do, either (althought the killer and his family might be thankful for ever).
Good point. With Christianity, the people who can admit that they're the killers are thankful forever. Those who think they don't need justification scoff at the offer.


Very good point. With Chocolanity, the people who can admit that they are the killers eat chocolate. Those who think they don't need justification scoff at the offer.

Ciao

- viole
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes viole's post
17-12-2013, 12:46 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(17-12-2013 12:28 PM)viole Wrote:  
(12-12-2013 01:48 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Good point. With Christianity, the people who can admit that they're the killers are thankful forever. Those who think they don't need justification scoff at the offer.


Very good point. With Chocolanity, the people who can admit that they are the killers eat chocolate. Those who think they don't need justification scoff at the offer.

Ciao

- viole


**perk**

whut?

There's a "Chocolanity"? Where do I sign up?

buwwwaaahaaaa

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: