Heaven and The Problem of Evil
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
17-12-2013, 01:59 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(17-12-2013 12:28 PM)viole Wrote:  
(12-12-2013 01:48 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Good point. With Christianity, the people who can admit that they're the killers are thankful forever. Those who think they don't need justification scoff at the offer.


Very good point. With Chocolanity, the people who can admit that they are the killers eat chocolate. Those who think they don't need justification scoff at the offer.

Ciao

- viole

But does it have wine and crackers? Christianity has those. Well, at least the good kinds. The heathen sects use grape juice and bread. Yuck.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-12-2013, 02:11 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
Sorry, Alla. I answered you a day or two ago, and apparently my post got eated! Ohmy

(15-12-2013 09:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(15-12-2013 08:55 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  So, getting good and bad is better than neutrality? Does it average out? If getting X bad and X good the same as getting nothing (on average)? Can you get more good for less evil, making a net good?
It is better to know good and evil then neutral. Neutral will not get you anywhere.
Progression is not possible. When there is bad and you overcome it then you become stronger or wiser and this is progression.
When there is illness and you find a way to fight it you progress - become more intelligent and more experienced. Progression is better than no progression.
It is always good to have/to chose what is better.

So, bad happens, and you progress more than the bad hurt you? It's a net positive? What about children with Tay Sachs? Do children with it progress more than children without it? Is it a net good that they get it? If so, is this unfair to children who don't get it?


(15-12-2013 09:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(15-12-2013 08:55 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If the answer to the last question is "yes", why can't we have less suffering?
1)may be we do have less than what is available.
2)God is all-knowing. In order to become like Him we also have to become all-knowing. It is great to become like God. Being God gives you endless opportunities.

We're supposed to become like God? If we can become like God through gaining knowledge, how did God become like he is? Is there someone greater than God that made him?


(15-12-2013 09:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(15-12-2013 08:55 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I'm not sure how this addresses what I said. Your assertions are still circular and lack evidence. Well, they lack evidence that doesn't require you to assume a priori that your conclusion is true.
If we didn't have opportunity to come here and to be tested we would never knew what our choices would be. Even God wouldn't know. He knows FOR SURE only after we make our choices. Do you remember WHEN God KNEW FOR SURE about Abraham's readiness to obey even the hardest commandment? God said: "NOW I know that Abraham will obey laws" only AFTER Abraham almost killed his son.
There is a law: in order to become like Father/to become Gods you have TO PROVE that you are worthy.
(15-12-2013 08:55 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  So God blesses us by not hurting us.
No, God blesses us by giving us something good. He punishes us by withholding something good.
For example, if you keep His commandments you ALWAYS have His Spirit with you. If you don't Spirit leaves you. You can not have His influence any more.
The best blessing that God gives us is this: we can be in His presence and we can have influence of Holy Ghost.
Curse(punishment) is this: we can not be in His presence and we can not have influence of Holy Ghost.

Wait? Is God all knowing or not? You just said right above this part that he's all knowing. If he's all knowing, how did he not know the choice?


(15-12-2013 09:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(15-12-2013 08:55 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  That totally happened to Job.
Job was not punished. we can see from this story that bad things can happen to good people( test). But Job was not cut off from God(blessing)
What about his family members that were killed by Satan (with God's permission!)? Were they "tested"?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-12-2013, 07:19 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(17-12-2013 02:11 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  So, bad happens, and you progress more than the bad hurt you?
No. Your progression depends on what you do and what you become when any kind of bad hurts you.
We have different weaknesses. Some trials help us to turn those weaknesses to our strength.
God likes to shake us sometimes. When I am afraid to do something(I have no faith in myself) He makes me do it. And He tells me that I can overcome if I try my best. I try my best and I do overcome. This way I have an opportunity to learn something new about myself and I am growing/progressing.

(17-12-2013 05:21 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  What about children with Tay Sachs? Do children with it progress more than children without it? Is it a net good that they get it? If so, is this unfair to children who don't get it?
I don't know how they progress but I know that they will have an opportunity to progress in the end of Millennium. They will be resurrected in perfect bodies and they will be tested. In this life their mission can be this: their parents have trial - to take care of this child. And of course they(this kids) are here to obtain physical bodies.

(17-12-2013 05:21 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  We're supposed to become like God?
Yes, this is even a law "be like your God". Here we are learning how to be like God/Gods

(17-12-2013 05:21 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If we can become like God through gaining knowledge, how did God become like he is? Is there someone greater than God that made him?
1)The same way as we do. God Son Jehovah(Jesus Christ) gained His knowledge of evil when He came here. He did what His God and His Father did.
2)God Son has His God Father. God Father is greater than God Son. God Father has His God. And so on.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-12-2013, 07:30 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(17-12-2013 02:11 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Wait? Is God all knowing or not? You just said right above this part that he's all knowing. If he's all knowing, how did he not know the choice?
He is all-knowing comparing with us. He knows so much about stuff that we can not even imagine. So much that there are no words to describe it. The best or closest description is "all-knowing".
Symbolism, symbolism.
But He knows His children so well that He can predict almost all our choices. But He still has to test us/give us an opportunity to make right choices.

(17-12-2013 02:11 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(15-12-2013 09:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  Job was not punished. we can see from this story that bad things can happen to good people( test). But Job was not cut off from God(blessing)
What about his family members that were killed by Satan (with God's permission!)? Were they "tested"?
I would say that Job was tested. One part of their(family) mission here on earth is to help with testing of Job.
God needs us. We are instruments in His hands. I am sure you were instrument in His hands many times but you don't know this. You also have mission on Earth. Everybody has. Even if they are atheist, or muslims or whatever.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-12-2013, 08:11 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(17-12-2013 07:19 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 05:21 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  What about children with Tay Sachs? Do children with it progress more than children without it? Is it a net good that they get it? If so, is this unfair to children who don't get it?
I don't know how they progress but I know that they will have an opportunity to progress in the end of Millennium. They will be resurrected in perfect bodies and they will be tested. In this life their mission can be this: their parents have trial - to take care of this child. And of course they(this kids) are here to obtain physical bodies.

That is horrible. I don't want to have anything to do with someone who would "test" me by torturing my child to death.


(17-12-2013 07:19 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 05:21 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If we can become like God through gaining knowledge, how did God become like he is? Is there someone greater than God that made him?
1)The same way as we do. God Son Jehovah(Jesus Christ) gained His knowledge of evil when He came here. He did what His God and His Father did.
2)God Son has His God Father. God Father is greater than God Son. God Father has His God. And so on.

If God gained knowledge through the tree and through trials, who made the tree and the world God lived in? Who made God?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-12-2013, 08:16 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(17-12-2013 07:30 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 02:11 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Wait? Is God all knowing or not? You just said right above this part that he's all knowing. If he's all knowing, how did he not know the choice?
He is all-knowing comparing with us. He knows so much about stuff that we can not even imagine. So much that there are no words to describe it. The best or closest description is "all-knowing".
Symbolism, symbolism.
But He knows His children so well that He can predict almost all our choices. But He still has to test us/give us an opportunity to make right choices.

No, I think the term "all knowing" actually means all knowing. Generally, people who throw that around do so because they want their god to be great and limitless.

If you don't think it's a good term, don't use it. There are plenty of better terms that could be used and would avoid confusion. "Very knowledgeable" covers what you're talking about without conveying limitless knowledge.

That being said, can God predict any human decision, or does he have to wait for the decision to be made to understand it?


(17-12-2013 07:30 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 02:11 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  What about his family members that were killed by Satan (with God's permission!)? Were they "tested"?
I would say that Job was tested. One part of their(family) mission here on earth is to help with testing of Job.
God needs us. We are instruments in His hands. I am sure you were instrument in His hands many times but you don't know this. You also have mission on Earth. Everybody has. Even if they are atheist, or muslims or whatever.

This is like the Tay Sachs thing. That's just horrible what he did, and telling people that their purpose on this world was to die to psychologically torture test someone is pretty bad. The fact that he's given a new family as compensation really paints God as not caring about people and treating them as collateral. They're like poker chips, in that story.

Why does God "need" us? If he's powerful enough to create us, what could he possibly "need" us for?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-12-2013, 12:21 PM (This post was last modified: 18-12-2013 12:53 PM by viole.)
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(17-12-2013 07:19 PM)Alla Wrote:  God likes to shake us sometimes. When I am afraid to do something(I have no faith in myself) He makes me do it. And He tells me that I can overcome if I try my best. I try my best and I do overcome. This way I have an opportunity to learn something new about myself and I am growing/progressing.

You, you, you.... Belief in God is the ultimate form of narcissism, isn't it?

Do you think He also like to shake those poor parents who have a child with a horrible genetic disease? Then Allah likes it too, since it does not appear there to be any correlation between these diseases and the local form of delusion.

Ciao

- viole
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-12-2013, 02:51 PM (This post was last modified: 18-12-2013 02:54 PM by Alla.)
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(17-12-2013 08:16 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  No, I think the term "all knowing" actually means all knowing. Generally, people who throw that around do so because they want their god to be great and limitless.
If you don't think it's a good term, don't use it. There are plenty of better terms that could be used and would avoid confusion. "Very knowledgeable" covers what you're talking about without conveying limitless knowledge.
all-knowing being is the one for whom past has no secrets, present has no secrets and future won't be able to keep secrets. To be all-knowing is to know about ALL FACTS that happened in the past, happens now and will happen in the future when they happen.
When IN THE FUTURE I choose to lie God will know ALL about it. There is no way to hide it from Him. That is why He is ALL-knowing.

(17-12-2013 08:16 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  That being said, can God predict any human decision, or does he have to wait for the decision to be made to understand it?
He predicts every our choice. He knows us very well. But we can surprise Him. And He WILL know about every our choice right away.

(17-12-2013 08:16 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  This is like the Tay Sachs thing. That's just horrible what he did, and telling people that their purpose on this world was to die to psychologically torture test someone is pretty bad. The fact that he's given a new family as compensation really paints God as not caring about people and treating them as collateral. They're like poker chips, in that story.
Every action itself neither good nor bad/evil. But intentions can be good or evil.
Good intention: parent takes his child to the doctor where he knows his child will have physical pain(suffering). But why does parent ALLOW child to suffer? A: because it is for child's good.
Bad intention: evil/sick person wants to take a child to the doctor because he/she wants to observe how child is suffering.
If child's suffering at the doctor is NECESSARY for child's good parent will allow it.
If our suffering is NECESSARY for us to have eternal life HEAVENLY FATHER will allow it.

(17-12-2013 08:16 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Why does God "need" us? If he's powerful enough to create us, what could he possibly "need" us for?
Pretend you have a child. And you are able to do things around the house but many times you ask your child to do choirs. Why would be the main reason you ask your child to do choirs? Would it be because you are not able to do those things yourself? or there is another reason?

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-12-2013, 03:10 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-12-2013 02:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  all-knowing being is the one for whom past has no secrets, present has no secrets and future won't be able to keep secrets. To be all-knowing is to know about ALL FACTS that happened in the past, happens now and will happen in the future when they happen.
When IN THE FUTURE I choose to lie God will know ALL about it. There is no way to hide it from Him. That is why He is ALL-knowing.

I thought God could see the future. I thought the Bible was pretty explicit about this.

For example, Jeremiah 1:5 states that God knew us before we were formed in the womb. So, if he knows what people are going to exist before they're even conceived, then he must know which people are going to copulate, and which attempts will be successful.

That's some pretty pin-point, specific knowledge right there.


(18-12-2013 02:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 08:16 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  This is like the Tay Sachs thing. That's just horrible what he did, and telling people that their purpose on this world was to die to psychologically torture test someone is pretty bad. The fact that he's given a new family as compensation really paints God as not caring about people and treating them as collateral. They're like poker chips, in that story.
Every action itself neither good nor bad/evil. But intentions can be good or evil.
Good intention: parent takes his child to the doctor where he knows his child will have physical pain(suffering). But why does parent ALLOW child to suffer? A: because it is for child's good.
Bad intention: evil/sick person wants to take a child to the doctor because he/she wants to observe how child is suffering.
If child's suffering at the doctor is NECESSARY for child's good parent will allow it.
If our suffering is NECESSARY for us to have eternal life HEAVENLY FATHER will allow it.

God/human analogies always fail, because God has way fewer limitations than us. Parents don't have the means to simply wipe disease from the face of the planet or to boost the child's immune system through will alone. Either your god is great or he is not. If he is, stop comparing him to humans who can't even approximate his abilities. If he's not, why call him "God"?


(18-12-2013 02:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 08:16 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Why does God "need" us? If he's powerful enough to create us, what could he possibly "need" us for?
Pretend you have a child. And you are able to do things around the house but many times you ask your child to do choirs. Why would be the main reason you ask your child to do choirs? Would it be because you are not able to do those things yourself? or there is another reason?

I do have a child. Two of them, in fact. I am not, however, all powerful. This isn't a good analogy.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like RobbyPants's post
18-12-2013, 03:43 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-12-2013 03:10 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I thought God could see the future.
He predicts it very good. If you throw the ball you know(see the future) what will happen next. You know that ball will fall down on the ground.
God sees what we do and He knows what consequences will be.
We may not know the consequence of every choice we make but God knows. That is why He can predict future very good.

(18-12-2013 03:10 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I thought the Bible was pretty explicit about this.
For example, Jeremiah 1:5 states that God knew us before we were formed in the womb. So, if he knows what people are going to exist before they're even conceived, then he must know which people are going to copulate, and which attempts will be successful.
That's some pretty pin-point, specific knowledge right there.
Yes. I agree but let me tell you something
We know that mortal man is not just "flesh and blood" but he is SPIRIT also and as spirits we lived with God long before we came on this Earth.
He had plenty of time to know us/how we are and what our choice might be.
Jesus had body "flesh and blood" but He came from heaven. He lived with Heavenly Father before He was born. So do we. Because Father knows us well He knows what trials are better for each one of us and where we have to be born, when and in which family. Everything was planned long before this physical Earth was created. And we accepted this plan. We were very happy, we agreed to pass ALL things to return back home and to become like Father/to become Gods.
We lived with God Heavenly Father before our physical bodies were formed in our mother's wombs.
We are His offsprings/children. It means that we come from royal/noble family. ALL OF US.
(18-12-2013 03:10 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  God/human analogies always fail, because God has way fewer limitations than us. Parents don't have the means to simply wipe disease from the face of the planet or to boost the child's immune system through will alone. Either your god is great or he is not. If he is, stop comparing him to humans who can't even approximate his abilities. If he's not, why call him "God"?
If God wipes disease than we will never know how to fight it.
every suffering symbolically we can call "enemy". Our job here is to fight with enemy and overcome it. This way we learn how to progress.
If we do not have opportunities to learn how to progress on our own we will never become Gods.
To overcome illness(enemy) is progression. How do we do this? We are looking for ways to overcome illness. We are growing on our own. This is the point:
we can not become Gods/like Gods if do not know how to do things on our own.

(18-12-2013 03:10 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I do have a child. Two of them, in fact. I am not, however, all powerful. This isn't a good analogy.
Even if you were all-powerful it would be a great idea if you teach your children to do choirs. It is GOOD for them.
It is GOOD for us when we learn to help our Father in Heaven. It is GOOD for us.
let's say God will never give you an opportunity to help anybody. What will happen to you? Give me some ideas.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: