Heaven and The Problem of Evil
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18-12-2013, 03:53 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-12-2013 03:10 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(18-12-2013 02:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  all-knowing being is the one for whom past has no secrets, present has no secrets and future won't be able to keep secrets. To be all-knowing is to know about ALL FACTS that happened in the past, happens now and will happen in the future when they happen.
When IN THE FUTURE I choose to lie God will know ALL about it. There is no way to hide it from Him. That is why He is ALL-knowing.

I thought God could see the future. I thought the Bible was pretty explicit about this.

For example, Jeremiah 1:5 states that God knew us before we were formed in the womb. So, if he knows what people are going to exist before they're even conceived, then he must know which people are going to copulate, and which attempts will be successful.

That's some pretty pin-point, specific knowledge right there.


(18-12-2013 02:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  Every action itself neither good nor bad/evil. But intentions can be good or evil.
Good intention: parent takes his child to the doctor where he knows his child will have physical pain(suffering). But why does parent ALLOW child to suffer? A: because it is for child's good.
Bad intention: evil/sick person wants to take a child to the doctor because he/she wants to observe how child is suffering.
If child's suffering at the doctor is NECESSARY for child's good parent will allow it.
If our suffering is NECESSARY for us to have eternal life HEAVENLY FATHER will allow it.

God/human analogies always fail, because God has way fewer limitations than us. Parents don't have the means to simply wipe disease from the face of the planet or to boost the child's immune system through will alone. Either your god is great or he is not. If he is, stop comparing him to humans who can't even approximate his abilities. If he's not, why call him "God"?


(18-12-2013 02:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  Pretend you have a child. And you are able to do things around the house but many times you ask your child to do choirs. Why would be the main reason you ask your child to do choirs? Would it be because you are not able to do those things yourself? or there is another reason?

I do have a child. Two of them, in fact. I am not, however, all powerful. This isn't a good analogy.



Points Robby for fighting the good fight. ThumbsupThumbsup

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18-12-2013, 04:01 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-12-2013 03:53 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Points Robby for fighting the good fight. ThumbsupThumbsup

I agree. RobbyPants is really really good. One of the best I would say.
I enjoy to have a conversation with him.
I wish all atheists were like him. Good manners and very smart guy.
Tomorrow I will leave some positive rating. They didn't let me today.No
P.S. My daughter finds his nickname very funny. She likes it.

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18-12-2013, 08:37 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-12-2013 03:43 PM)Alla Wrote:  He predicts it very good. If you throw the ball you know(see the future) what will happen next. You know that ball will fall down on the ground.
God sees what we do and He knows what consequences will be.
We may not know the consequence of every choice we make but God knows. That is why He can predict future very good.

I'd say he can predict it very well. He can tell ahead of time who's going to hook up with who, and which one sperm (if any) out of millions will hook up with the egg before the sperm even exist. Functionally speaking, it seems like he must simply "know the future". I'm honestly not sure what the difference between "flawless, pinpoint prediction" and "knowing the future" is. I'm assuming this is key to some apologetics, such as free will, but that's just a guess.


(18-12-2013 03:43 PM)Alla Wrote:  Yes. I agree but let me tell you something
We know that mortal man is not just "flesh and blood" but he is SPIRIT also and as spirits we lived with God long before we came on this Earth.
He had plenty of time to know us/how we are and what our choice might be.
Jesus had body "flesh and blood" but He came from heaven. He lived with Heavenly Father before He was born. So do we. Because Father knows us well He knows what trials are better for each one of us and where we have to be born, when and in which family. Everything was planned long before this physical Earth was created. And we accepted this plan. We were very happy, we agreed to pass ALL things to return back home and to become like Father/to become Gods.
We lived with God Heavenly Father before our physical bodies were formed in our mother's wombs.
We are His offsprings/children. It means that we come from royal/noble family. ALL OF US.

Okay, I'm going to have to call you on that one. Where in the Bible does it say that we lived with God as spirits before we were born? Why don't we have any recollection of this?

Were we in heaven while we were spirits? It seems like we'd have to be if we were "with God", in which case I wonder: why did we leave heaven? I mean, not only is Earth far worse than heaven, but now, we have a chance to go to hell! This doesn't make any sense.

But seriously: where does it say this? This is the first I've ever heard of this, and I was Christian for 30 years.


(18-12-2013 03:43 PM)Alla Wrote:  If God wipes disease than we will never know how to fight it.
every suffering symbolically we can call "enemy". Our job here is to fight with enemy and overcome it. This way we learn how to progress.
If we do not have opportunities to learn how to progress on our own we will never become Gods.
To overcome illness(enemy) is progression. How do we do this? We are looking for ways to overcome illness. We are growing on our own. This is the point:
we can not become Gods/like Gods if do not know how to do things on our own.

Well, yes! That's tautologically true! If there are no diseases to fight, then we don't have to learn to fight diseases. This sounds like a good thing! Teaching us to fight them (when we demonstrably fail a lot) seems like a bad thing!

Why can't God just give us that knowledge? Again, comparing God to humans will always fail, unless you actually believe God possesses many fallible human traits. Is this the case? Do you believe God to be flawed and with many human weaknesses?

I'm going to assume your answer is "no" as I go on. Humans will always have to deal with limitations on how to impart and learn knowledge as teachers and students. God (theoretically) has no such limitations.


(18-12-2013 03:43 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-12-2013 03:10 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I do have a child. Two of them, in fact. I am not, however, all powerful. This isn't a good analogy.
Even if you were all-powerful it would be a great idea if you teach your children to do choirs. It is GOOD for them.
It is GOOD for us when we learn to help our Father in Heaven. It is GOOD for us.

Why? Why not just will the work to be done? Why pick up a broom when I can make dust not exist?


(18-12-2013 03:43 PM)Alla Wrote:  let's say God will never give you an opportunity to help anybody. What will happen to you? Give me some ideas.

I'll flip this on its head and assume that the reason I don't have an opportunity to help anyone because God already fixed everything and made it all perfect (like it presumably is in heaven). I would, at that point, go on enjoying heaven.

If God didn't fix everything, then, by very definition, I have an opportunity to help someone. If he has, then we're all functionally in heaven. So far as I can tell, the only problem in this scenario is God, for willingly leaving problems lying around to be fixed. I could maybe entertain some arguments about how me learning to build a house that God didn't make is good because of [reasons], but I fail to see any "opportunities" involving cleaning up after God giving/letting a child get Tay Sachs. I see that as a problem that he either didn't fix and we can't, or something horrifying that he put there.


(18-12-2013 04:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  Tomorrow I will leave some positive rating. They didn't let me today.No
P.S. My daughter finds his nickname very funny. She likes it.

You might have to have a positive rating to give out ratings to others. I know you can't if you have a negative, but I don't know about sitting right at zero.

Thanks, it's a nickname I got over 15 years ago, and it sort of stuck.
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20-12-2013, 08:35 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I'd say he can predict it very well. He can tell ahead of time who's going to hook up with who, and which one sperm (if any) out of millions will hook up with the egg before the sperm even exist. Functionally speaking, it seems like he must simply "know the future". I'm honestly not sure what the difference between "flawless, pinpoint prediction" and "knowing the future" is. I'm assuming this is key to some apologetics, such as free will, but that's just a guess.
It was known who will hook up with whom before we came here. We knew in which family we will be born, what country and what time.
Because God knew us He also chose who is the best for certain missions and calls.
And when we live here and make choices He knows what trial are the best for us.
We lived with Heavenly Parents for a very long time. We developed there to a certain degree. But we could not progress more without physical bodies. Spirits have a gender, they are created in the image of Heavenly Parents - male and female.
Very good prediction that is based on facts/events that are going on now or happened in the past = to "see" the future.

(18-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Okay, I'm going to have to call you on that one. Where in the Bible does it say that we lived with God as spirits before we were born? Why don't we have any recollection of this?
Were we in heaven while we were spirits? It seems like we'd have to be if we were "with God",
Yes, we were with our Heavenly Parents. We don't remember for 2 reasons:
1)we would kill ourselves to go back to heaven if we remembered what a great place it is.
2)we have to live and to act by FAITH.
Bible doesn't say directly:" we lived with God in heaven as spirit children". But Bible does say this:
Psalm 82
In verse 1 it says that God is standing in the congregation of the mighty and that He judges among the gods.

Who are those gods?

In verse 6 it says that those gods who are in the congregation of the most High are His CHILDREN
Then in verse 7 He(God) says that all of them(gods/children of most High God) will DIE LIKE MEN.

So we see from this those verses that in heaven God has His children whom He calls gods and who will die like men and fall(become sinners) like one of the princes(Satan/Lucifer).

When Jesus was born and lived in Judea He told to the Jews this:
John 10
34 is it not written in your law(Psalm 82):I said you are gods?
35 if he called them gods unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture can not be broken....
Those Jews(people from the planet Earth) were children of God and gods that were mentioned in Psalm 82. They were in congregation of God the most High before they died like men and fell(became sinners) here on Earth.

(18-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  in which case I wonder: why did we leave heaven? I mean, not only is Earth far worse than heaven, but now, we have a chance to go to hell! This doesn't make any sense.
We have to come here to have physical bodies and to be tested. Without these two things we can not become Gods like our Heavenly Parents.
In heaven we can not learn certain things. Certain things can be learned only in fallen(telestial) world and in telestial bodies/mortal bodies. For example, how does God know what EXACTLY death is? A: He died. That is how He knows.
If we decided not to be born here and not to be tested we would become fallen spirits like Lucifer/we would become evil spirits/demons. Why?
If you want to know I can tell you why.

(18-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  But seriously: where does it say this? This is the first I've ever heard of this, and I was Christian for 30 years.
In the end of the 1st century Saints or Church of Jesus Christ did not exist on Earth any more. Priesthood did not exist any more. Christians became apostates. They(many wolves in sheep skins) were teaching their own doctrines. Apostles were killed, God didn't give any more revelations to apostates. Many parts of the Gospel were lost. It was universal Apostasy among Christians. That is why you have never heard.
Gospel had to be restored. What you here now is restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.

(18-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Well, yes! That's tautologically true! If there are no diseases to fight, then we don't have to learn to fight diseases. This sounds like a good thing! Teaching us to fight them (when we demonstrably fail a lot) seems like a bad thing!
It doesn't matter if we fall. We don't have to be perfect now and do everything perfect. The point is to do our best. When we do our best we still learning.
If I will never win sprint I am still can become a better runner(progression) then before I started to practice.

(18-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Why can't God just give us that knowledge? Again, comparing God to humans will always fail, unless you actually believe God possesses many fallible human traits. Is this the case? Do you believe God to be flawed and with many human weaknesses?
Nobody can have knowledge right away. Why? Because knowledge is a blessing that has to be earned. To become God is a privilege that has to be earned.
This is eternal principal which means it was not created by our God - many things have to be earned. Don't you agree that things that we earn make us feel better about ourselves? And those that are given don't make us feel better about ourselves?
God doesn't posses fallible human traits. Nobody can keep secrets from Him, many things are secrets for us.

(18-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I'm going to assume your answer is "no" as I go on. Humans will always have to deal with limitations on how to impart and learn knowledge as teachers and students. God (theoretically) has no such limitations.
This is the difference: He is capable to know about EVERY FACT when and if He wants or needs, we(humans) don't have this ability/opportunity/capacity.

(18-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Why? Why not just will the work to be done? Why pick up a broom when I can make dust not exist?
Because this way you don't become lazy?Smile Laziness is not a good thing.


(18-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(18-12-2013 03:43 PM)Alla Wrote:  let's say God will never give you an opportunity to help anybody. What will happen to you? Give me some ideas.
I'll flip this on its head and assume that the reason I don't have an opportunity to help anyone because God already fixed everything and made it all perfect (like it presumably is in heaven). I would, at that point, go on enjoying heaven.
I understand what you are trying to say. But you never heard another thing: to enjoy heaven FULLY is to have ETERNAL PROGRESSION or ETERNAL LIFE. If you do not learn certain things here you won't be able to learn them in heaven. And that is why even if you get to heaven(you will have IMMORTALITY) you won't be able to have ETERNAL PROGRESSION/eternal life.
There is the difference between immortality in heaven and eternal life in heaven.
Immortality in heaven = life forever without eternal progression.
Eternal life in heaven = life forever with eternal progression/endless opportunities.
In order to have eternal progression there are some things that have to be learned here. Because they are available only in our fallen(telestial) world

(18-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Thanks, it's a nickname I got over 15 years ago, and it sort of stuck.
Somebody gave it to you? If "yes" why?

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21-12-2013, 07:43 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Okay, I'm going to have to call you on that one. Where in the Bible does it say that we lived with God as spirits before we were born? Why don't we have any recollection of this?

You are referencing the wrong book when you use the Bible with Alla.

You need to refer to her Moronic text. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-12-2013, 08:05 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-12-2013 04:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-12-2013 03:53 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Points Robby for fighting the good fight. ThumbsupThumbsup

I agree. RobbyPants is really really good. One of the best I would say.
I enjoy to have a conversation with him.
I wish all atheists were like him. Good manners and very smart guy.
Tomorrow I will leave some positive rating. They didn't let me today.No
P.S. My daughter finds his nickname very funny. She likes it.

That's the best post I've read from this direction. Wink

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22-12-2013, 12:41 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(20-12-2013 08:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I'd say he can predict it very well. He can tell ahead of time who's going to hook up with who, and which one sperm (if any) out of millions will hook up with the egg before the sperm even exist. Functionally speaking, it seems like he must simply "know the future". I'm honestly not sure what the difference between "flawless, pinpoint prediction" and "knowing the future" is. I'm assuming this is key to some apologetics, such as free will, but that's just a guess.
It was known who will hook up with whom before we came here. We knew in which family we will be born, what country and what time.
Because God knew us He also chose who is the best for certain missions and calls.
And when we live here and make choices He knows what trial are the best for us.
We lived with Heavenly Parents for a very long time. We developed there to a certain degree. But we could not progress more without physical bodies. Spirits have a gender, they are created in the image of Heavenly Parents - male and female.
Very good prediction that is based on facts/events that are going on now or happened in the past = to "see" the future.

If having perfect prediction is the same as seeing the future, does God already know who will end up in heaven and who will end up in hell? Does he already know the result of our test?

If not, how can he predict who will be born generations in advance?


(20-12-2013 08:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  in which case I wonder: why did we leave heaven? I mean, not only is Earth far worse than heaven, but now, we have a chance to go to hell! This doesn't make any sense.
We have to come here to have physical bodies and to be tested. Without these two things we can not become Gods like our Heavenly Parents.
In heaven we can not learn certain things. Certain things can be learned only in fallen(telestial) world and in telestial bodies/mortal bodies. For example, how does God know what EXACTLY death is? A: He died. That is how He knows.
If we decided not to be born here and not to be tested we would become fallen spirits like Lucifer/we would become evil spirits/demons. Why?
If you want to know I can tell you why.

Why does God give us this test? Why is it necessary?


(20-12-2013 08:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Why can't God just give us that knowledge? Again, comparing God to humans will always fail, unless you actually believe God possesses many fallible human traits. Is this the case? Do you believe God to be flawed and with many human weaknesses?
Nobody can have knowledge right away. Why? Because knowledge is a blessing that has to be earned. To become God is a privilege that has to be earned.
This is eternal principal which means it was not created by our God - many things have to be earned. Don't you agree that things that we earn make us feel better about ourselves? And those that are given don't make us feel better about ourselves?
God doesn't posses fallible human traits. Nobody can keep secrets from Him, many things are secrets for us.

Why not? Is this a limitation God has? Is that something God is not able to do: give us knowledge on his own without us learning it?


(20-12-2013 08:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I'm going to assume your answer is "no" as I go on. Humans will always have to deal with limitations on how to impart and learn knowledge as teachers and students. God (theoretically) has no such limitations.
This is the difference: He is capable to know about EVERY FACT when and if He wants or needs, we(humans) don't have this ability/opportunity/capacity.

You're missing the point. You're admitting there is a difference between people and God, and that's my point. Humans have limitations that God supposedly does not. Because of that difference, these analogies always fail. Explaining why God does things in terms of the reasons humans do things (their limitations) is implying that God has those same limitations. You either have to say your God is much more weak than you normally claim him to be or you need to not compare him to humans when explaining his motivations.


(20-12-2013 08:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Why? Why not just will the work to be done? Why pick up a broom when I can make dust not exist?
Because this way you don't become lazy?Smile Laziness is not a good thing.

Why would laziness be bad in a world where you can simply will things to be done? We consider laziness bad as humans because, for most of human history, we had to work very hard to stay alive. So, laziness was bad. I don't see why it would matter if you could simply will yourself and your family to be full, instead of going out and growing crops.


(20-12-2013 08:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I'll flip this on its head and assume that the reason I don't have an opportunity to help anyone because God already fixed everything and made it all perfect (like it presumably is in heaven). I would, at that point, go on enjoying heaven.
I understand what you are trying to say. But you never heard another thing: to enjoy heaven FULLY is to have ETERNAL PROGRESSION or ETERNAL LIFE. If you do not learn certain things here you won't be able to learn them in heaven. And that is why even if you get to heaven(you will have IMMORTALITY) you won't be able to have ETERNAL PROGRESSION/eternal life.
There is the difference between immortality in heaven and eternal life in heaven.
Immortality in heaven = life forever without eternal progression.
Eternal life in heaven = life forever with eternal progression/endless opportunities.
In order to have eternal progression there are some things that have to be learned here. Because they are available only in our fallen(telestial) world

Why is this? Is this some limitation by which God must abide? Either the "universal law" that says that we have to be tested and progress to enjoy heaven is more powerful than God, or it's not. If it's not, then this is an arbitrary standard set by God.


(20-12-2013 08:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Thanks, it's a nickname I got over 15 years ago, and it sort of stuck.
Somebody gave it to you? If "yes" why?

Long story short, I told a friend about a conversation where one guy kept pissing the other one off calling him "Mr. Fancy Shmancy Pants." My friend started calling me Robby Pants (my name is Rob). The nick name stuck with our mutual friends. I would also get called things like "Mr. Pants", "The Pants", "Mr. The Pants", and "Pantelones". My wife is often called "Mrs. Pants".
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23-12-2013, 02:11 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(22-12-2013 12:41 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If having perfect prediction is the same as seeing the future, does God already know who will end up in heaven and who will end up in hell? Does he already know the result of our test?
I didn't say "perfect prediction". I said "very good prediction".
Look, I don't know how good God knows for sure what we will choose in the future. But by observing us and knowing our choices He can predict what we will BECOME.
For example if you don't know what effect drugs can have on you and I know this I can predict what will happen to you in the future. You will become an addict, sick person, and broke person and you will end up dead very soon. You will be unhappy person and very lonely and very weak. UNLESS you REPENT(stop using drugs). I will try to help you. While helping you I will observe how you are taking my help. If I see that you are not responsive I KNOW(SEE FUTURE) you will suffer even much more and you will die soon.

(22-12-2013 12:41 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If not, how can he predict who will be born generations in advance?
As I said in other post we all lived with Him before we came to this earth. Many of His children are not born yet and they are waiting in heaven for their time to come here.
Father decides when and where we have to be born and in what family.
If in pre-mortal life He chose a family and they being here on earth decided that they don't want to have children than Father will send spirits to different family.
"Multiply and replenish" is very important law. This way spirit children of God can be born here and be tested. But if someone choose not to obey this law they may do so. Moral agency is given to everyone. Nobody is forced to obey God's laws

(22-12-2013 12:41 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Why does God give us this test? Why is it necessary?
It has to be OUR decision to BECOME like Him. Every spirit(intelligent being) has to make this choice on his/her own.
Test is this:
There is good and evil. By the way how we take evil things and good things in THIS life we either progress(become more like Father) or we destroy ourselves(become like Lucifer).
By having test(CHOICES) we CAN prove to ourselves and to God Heavenly Father that we want to be like Him.


(22-12-2013 12:41 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Why not? Is this a limitation God has?
Yes. God obeys eternal laws. All Gods obey eternal laws and that is why they remain to be Gods.

(22-12-2013 12:41 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Is that something God is not able to do: give us knowledge on his own without us learning it?
Do you believe in magic or fairy tails? I don't. To have knowledge without learning is magic/a fairy tail - something that do not exist in REAL world.
Even Gods have to have learning process for may be millions/billons of years before they become Gods.
And when or if we get to heaven we will still continue to learn more before we become Gods/like Gods

(22-12-2013 12:41 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(20-12-2013 08:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  This is the difference: He is capable to know about EVERY FACT when and if He wants or needs, we(humans) don't have this ability/opportunity/capacity.

You're missing the point. You're admitting there is a difference between people and God, and that's my point. Humans have limitations that God supposedly does not. Because of that difference, these analogies always fail. Explaining why God does things in terms of the reasons humans do things (their limitations) is implying that God has those same limitations. You either have to say your God is much more weak than you normally claim him to be or you need to not compare him to humans when explaining his motivations.
I am telling you about true God and not about god who is made up by many religions. True God has nothing to do with magic. True God does REAL things in REAL world.
God Yahweh never said that He has ABSOLUTE power ABSOLUTELLY everywhere. And He never called Himself an Absolute. This is what false religions call Him.
If true God looks weaker than false god/gods than it is only because true God is not fairy tail god but REAL God. Only in magical world EVERYTHING or ANYTHING is possible.

(22-12-2013 12:41 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(20-12-2013 08:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  Because this way you don't become lazy?Smile Laziness is not a good thing.
Why would laziness be bad in a world where you can simply will things to be done? We consider laziness bad as humans because, for most of human history, we had to work very hard to stay alive. So, laziness was bad. I don't see why it would matter if you could simply will yourself and your family to be full, instead of going out and growing crops.
In real world real Gods work. If God becomes lazy He or She can not be God anymore.
The point of eternal life or being Gods is to have ETERNAL HAPPINESS.
True and eternal principle is this: when you do something by working hard and then get good results you will have HAPPINESS.
Try to create something beautiful or useful and see how much you will ENJOY your TIME by DOING/creating it. This is the point of eternal life - ENJOY everything fully without any limitations.
ALL earthly things are in image and likeness of ALL heavenly things.

(22-12-2013 12:41 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Why is this? Is this some limitation by which God must abide? Either the "universal law" that says that we have to be tested and progress to enjoy heaven is more powerful than God, or it's not. If it's not, then this is an arbitrary standard set by God.
what you want to know is a very heavy stuff. But this is what I can tell you.
Our God Father has His God. And that God has His God.
And there is eternal matter that never was created by anybody. And there are eternal laws. And if intelligent beings want to become Gods they have to obey those eternal laws. To be God is to have capacity to take eternal matter and create/organize things.
And our God is not the first God and not the last God. He is the first and the last but ONLY for us and ONLY in His worlds/in the worlds that He creates.
"all-powerful" and "all-knowing", and "the first and the last", "in the beginning" is not absolute thing but relative.

(22-12-2013 12:41 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Long story short, I told a friend about a conversation where one guy kept pissing the other one off calling him "Mr. Fancy Shmancy Pants." My friend started calling me Robby Pants (my name is Rob). The nick name stuck with our mutual friends. I would also get called things like "Mr. Pants", "The Pants", "Mr. The Pants", and "Pantelones". My wife is often called "Mrs. Pants".
That is funny how they call your wife. I also have a question.
How are you planning to teach your kids about God? Will you let her to teach them religious things? Will she let you to teach them atheism?
It is interesting how families solve those problems.
I know it may be very confusing for kids. But I think the best way is to be good examples and teach them to be kind, honest, caring...

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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23-12-2013, 02:43 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(13-12-2013 09:41 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  
(13-12-2013 09:31 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Nope, no conflict there. Angel
Yeah, yeah, I know what your're saying but I hope you're just pretending not to understand me. But I'll repeat, because I'm stuck at home and bored Smile

And with all the things on the internet to do, you choose to troll here?

Quote:Any group that never really admits or is openly hostile to outside viewpoints or discussion inevitably gets stuck in a loop of self-affirmation.

OH, you must be talking about xtards.


Quote:Same ideas, same viewpoints, same dynamics, same conclusions. Not exactly the environment for rational discussion, especially for a forum with a name like this one.

Excuse me. Religious rhetoric is NOT "rational discussion". That is simply your brainwashed wishful thinking.


Quote:I'll be as respectful to you as I hope you would be to me, but if part of a 'thinking atheist' forum is to not invite opposing viewpoints, then yes it is in danger of being stuck in that loop.


Oh, look, it's another variant of the "you are just closed-minded" bullshit riff.

Get Thee quickly to a large bowl of delicious Qualia Soup:




It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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27-02-2014, 11:36 PM (This post was last modified: 27-02-2014 11:40 PM by donotwant.)
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
A dude who takes Christianity VERY seriously told me that you actually don't have free will in heaven and the only reason why we have free will on earth is to be able to choose between christianity or hell. How do you like that?
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