Heaven and The Problem of Evil
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18-11-2013, 02:51 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-11-2013 02:41 PM)alpha male Wrote:  One could argue that by accepting salvation, we’re voluntarily giving up free will.

So... you have no free will? Dodgy

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18-11-2013, 02:56 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-11-2013 02:51 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  So... you have no free will? Dodgy
In heaven I won't have free will. Thought that was apparent considering the argument I was replying to.
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18-11-2013, 03:01 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-11-2013 02:56 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 02:51 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  So... you have no free will? Dodgy
In heaven I won't have free will. Thought that was apparent considering the argument I was replying to.

That's a pretty definite statement considering you can't possibly know that.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-11-2013, 03:03 PM (This post was last modified: 18-11-2013 03:14 PM by sporehux.)
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
So much Jasper in Heaven, must have been one of the authors Favourite stones.

The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, clear as glass.
The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire,
And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian
having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
And the fourth row, a beryl, an onyx, and a jasper:


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Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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18-11-2013, 03:10 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-11-2013 03:01 PM)Chas Wrote:  That's a pretty definite statement considering you can't possibly know that.
That I can't now that is irrelevant, as it flows from a given in the OP. It's given in the OP that the saved won't sin in heaven. It's a reasonable conclusion that they won't be able to sin in heaven, and from that it's reasonable to conclude they won't have free will.
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18-11-2013, 03:18 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
This topic is exactly what I started thinking about months ago. If God couldn't make people all perfect and sinless in the first place, it made no sense how I was supposed to believe he can make heaven any kind of paradise.
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18-11-2013, 03:29 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-11-2013 02:56 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 02:51 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  So... you have no free will? Dodgy
In heaven I won't have free will. Thought that was apparent considering the argument I was replying to.

Acceptance of salvation occurs on earth, not heaven. Dodgy

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18-11-2013, 03:30 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-11-2013 03:18 PM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  This topic is exactly what I started thinking about months ago. If God couldn't make people all perfect and sinless in the first place, it made no sense how I was supposed to believe he can make heaven any kind of paradise.
God presumably could have made people sinless in the first place. Actually he did - the difference is that A&E were mutably sinless, while in heaven we're immutably sinless.

But, it doesn't necessarily follow that if God could make people immutably sinless in the first place that he would do so. God could have his own purposes for allowing sin and suffering. Indeed, Romans 9 says that god allows these in order to make a complete revelation of himself. For instance, I can't know god as savior if I don't have sins to be saved from. I can't know him as comforter if I never suffer.

Why would god want to make a complete revelation of himself? Probably in order to have a deeper relationship with us. If god never showed sides of himself (e.g. judgment and anger) which people might not like, his relationship with people would be very shallow, akin to an eternal first date. There's a thread going which says something similar from an atheist's point of view.

Of course, if you dismiss such analysis as [reasons], you can believe anything you want.
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18-11-2013, 03:34 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-11-2013 03:29 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Acceptance of salvation occurs on earth, not heaven. Dodgy
Removal of sin occurs in heaven, not on earth. Do you have a significant point? This seems rather nit-picky.
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18-11-2013, 03:40 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
Genesis 19:24
Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord out of heaven.

So apparently heaven also has sulfur and fire. Huh..what do they use that for, barbecue?
Hell is gnashing teeth, lake of fire so..these things don't seem like physical places.
I can't find anything with a good description of heaven.

John 6:50-71 ESV
This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. ...

Heaven has bread..Was Jesus the gingerbread man? Surely he didn't speak in metaphors.

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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