Heaven and The Problem of Evil
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18-11-2013, 03:44 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-11-2013 03:30 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 03:18 PM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  This topic is exactly what I started thinking about months ago. If God couldn't make people all perfect and sinless in the first place, it made no sense how I was supposed to believe he can make heaven any kind of paradise.
God presumably could have made people sinless in the first place. Actually he did - the difference is that A&E were mutably sinless, while in heaven we're immutably sinless.

But, it doesn't necessarily follow that if God could make people immutably sinless in the first place that he would do so. God could have his own purposes for allowing sin and suffering. Indeed, Romans 9 says that god allows these in order to make a complete revelation of himself. For instance, I can't know god as savior if I don't have sins to be saved from. I can't know him as comforter if I never suffer.

Why would god want to make a complete revelation of himself? Probably in order to have a deeper relationship with us. If god never showed sides of himself (e.g. judgment and anger) which people might not like, his relationship with people would be very shallow, akin to an eternal first date. There's a thread going which says something similar from an atheist's point of view.

Of course, if you dismiss such analysis as [reasons], you can believe anything you want.

No, I dismiss all of your made-up stuff and base belief on actual evidence.

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18-11-2013, 03:48 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-11-2013 03:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, I dismiss all of your made-up stuff and base belief on actual evidence.
OK, I'll ignore you and carry on with people who can discuss a position even if it's hypothetical to them.
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18-11-2013, 03:52 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-11-2013 03:34 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 03:29 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Acceptance of salvation occurs on earth, not heaven. Dodgy
Removal of sin occurs in heaven, not on earth. Do you have a significant point? This seems rather nit-picky.

Point being, ya come to an atheist forum bringing Christian apologetics and naming yerself "alpha male," expect some sass. Tongue

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18-11-2013, 03:57 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-11-2013 03:30 PM)alpha male Wrote:  God presumably could have made people sinless in the first place. Actually he did - the difference is that A&E were mutably sinless, while in heaven we're immutably sinless.

Sin is possible in heaven. They did have a war up there, after all.

(18-11-2013 03:30 PM)alpha male Wrote:  But, it doesn't necessarily follow that if God could make people immutably sinless in the first place that he would do so. God could have his own purposes for allowing sin and suffering. Indeed, Romans 9 says that god allows these in order to make a complete revelation of himself. For instance, I can't know god as savior if I don't have sins to be saved from. I can't know him as comforter if I never suffer.

The word 'can't' has no relevance if you claim your god to be all-powerful and omnipotent. Suffering becomes an extra, and unnecessary, step. If god 'had' to use suffering, then he has limitations on what he can accomplish.

(18-11-2013 03:30 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Why would god want to make a complete revelation of himself? Probably in order to have a deeper relationship with us. If god never showed sides of himself (e.g. judgment and anger) which people might not like, his relationship with people would be very shallow, akin to an eternal first date. There's a thread going which says something similar from an atheist's point of view.

His relationship is already shallow. We don't get so much as a talking donkey or a pillar of fire these days.

(18-11-2013 03:30 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Of course, if you dismiss such analysis as [reasons], you can believe anything you want.

Belief is pointless when seeking the truth. There is no clear explanation of heaven in the bible. Nobody here has been to this 'heaven' and returned to describe it. We know little of the subject and nothing of the actual place or whether it exists at all. Everything else is wishful thinking and speculation. That is truth, not belief.

...it would rather be a man... [who] plunges into scientific questions with which he has no real acquaintance, only to obscure them with aimless rhetoric, and distract the attention of his hearers from the real point at issue by eloquent digressions and skilled appeals to religious prejudice.
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18-11-2013, 08:03 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-11-2013 02:41 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:There are a lot of different ways to try and solve the Problem of Evil, but the most common ones you hear about these days are Free will, you have to know dark to appreciate light, and the best of all possible worlds. Lets look at those in depth a bit in context with heaven.

Free Will:
Free will has always been a big deal for the Abrahamic religions. Many consider it the cause of all of our current suffering and the justification for the existence of hell. You can ask why God has to work under this framework and why it's necessary for us to be able to be this terrible for God's great plan, but rest assured that this is because of [reasons]. Sometimes, people speculate that this is because God needs to know that we really love him, so we have to be able to love him on our own, and that this isn't super creepy or narcissistic because of [more reasons]. I'm starting to get off track, but what's important is that free will is really important.

So, the believers all die and go to heaven (yay!) and everything is wonderful beyond all imagination. Also, they are being nice to each other, because if they weren't, it wouldn't be wonderful. So, are they able to sin or be mean to each other? Do they still have their free will? Yes or no?

No: What the fuck!? I thought that free will was super important to justify The Problem of Evil because of [reasons]. This answer just invalidated this approach of theodicy on first principles.
Key word is was. By the time we’re in heaven, free will has served its purpose. It doesn’t need to continue eternally to serve as an explanation for POE.

One could argue that by accepting salvation, we’re voluntarily giving up free will.
I suppose, but that just seems rather hand-wavy. Typically, when people talk about why free will is so important, the reasons tend to be rather speculative. So it seems just as, if not more speculative to say that it's no longer needed.

I guess I can't say you're wrong, per se, but it does fall into the category of not even wrong.



(18-11-2013 02:41 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:You have to know dark to appreciate light/The best of all possible worlds:
(I'll combine these two here, because they work similarly when discussing heaven)

So, the idea here is that God faces some sort of limitations (because [reasons], of course)
Ya know, the parts that you gloss over as [reasons] might have a bearing on the discussion. Just sayin…
(18-11-2013 03:30 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Of course, if you dismiss such analysis as [reasons], you can believe anything you want.
I'm certainly willing to discuss them, but in the past, I have yet to hear of a reason that doesn't fall to pieces when compared to what most Christians think of heaven.



(18-11-2013 03:30 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 03:18 PM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  This topic is exactly what I started thinking about months ago. If God couldn't make people all perfect and sinless in the first place, it made no sense how I was supposed to believe he can make heaven any kind of paradise.
God presumably could have made people sinless in the first place. Actually he did - the difference is that A&E were mutably sinless, while in heaven we're immutably sinless.
What do you mean Adam and Eve were sinless? Are you blaming all of this on the snake? Something caused them to sin, whether it was their own nature or the snake. Either way, it's something that God created, unless you are arguing that the snake was something that God did not create, had no knowledge of, and could not control.



(18-11-2013 03:30 PM)alpha male Wrote:  But, it doesn't necessarily follow that if God could make people immutably sinless in the first place that he would do so. God could have his own purposes for allowing sin and suffering. Indeed, Romans 9 says that god allows these in order to make a complete revelation of himself. For instance, I can't know god as savior if I don't have sins to be saved from. I can't know him as comforter if I never suffer.

Why would god want to make a complete revelation of himself? Probably in order to have a deeper relationship with us. If god never showed sides of himself (e.g. judgment and anger) which people might not like, his relationship with people would be very shallow, akin to an eternal first date. There's a thread going which says something similar from an atheist's point of view.
I'm not saying he can't have a purpose. I'm saying, whatever that reason is, it results in more suffering than is otherwise necessary. So, I will, for convenience sake refer to it as [reasons] (however justified God feels they are). Your claim is, God allows suffering because of [reasons], and if it weren't for that, we would suffer less. This is because of two reasons:

1) God is working within some sort of limitations, and this is the best he can do (he is impotent), or

2) God doesn't have to abide by [reasons], but he chooses to, regardless of the additional suffering (he is malevolent).

Remember, the whole context of this thread is about heaven and the Problem of Evil. What you said there doesn't solve the Problem of Evil; it fits right into it.
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19-11-2013, 07:37 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-11-2013 03:52 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Point being, ya come to an atheist forum bringing Christian apologetics and naming yerself "alpha male," expect some sass. Tongue
OTOH, it's the thinking atheist, not the sassy atheist. Wink
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19-11-2013, 07:41 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 07:37 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 03:52 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Point being, ya come to an atheist forum bringing Christian apologetics and naming yerself "alpha male," expect some sass. Tongue
OTOH, it's the thinking atheist, not the sassy atheist. Wink

Tongue

But! Acceptance of Holy Spirit means eternal life is now, yet I'm thinking you have free will. So, what's up with that? Big Grin

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19-11-2013, 07:49 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-11-2013 03:48 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 03:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, I dismiss all of your made-up stuff and base belief on actual evidence.
OK, I'll ignore you and carry on with people who can discuss a position even if it's hypothetical to them.

At least we agree that heaven is hypothetical. Thumbsup

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19-11-2013, 08:48 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
If you eliminate free will, then there is no problem with evil.

Evil can only exist if God creates it and governs it (as He did for Earth/humanity). Based on the point that there will be no suffering in heaven, one can make a fairly certain assumption that God did not create evil to be in heaven.

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19-11-2013, 08:48 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-11-2013 08:03 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I suppose, but that just seems rather hand-wavy. Typically, when people talk about why free will is so important, the reasons tend to be rather speculative. So it seems just as, if not more speculative to say that it's no longer needed.
Which of their reasons require that free will be eternal?

Quote:What do you mean Adam and Eve were sinless?
I mean they didn’t sin. This was a mutable condition for them.
Quote:Are you blaming all of this on the snake? Something caused them to sin, whether it was their own nature or the snake. Either way, it's something that God created, unless you are arguing that the snake was something that God did not create, had no knowledge of, and could not control.
I’m not particularly blaming anyone, as it doesn’t seem necessary for this discussion.
Quote:I'm not saying he can't have a purpose. I'm saying, whatever that reason is, it results in more suffering than is otherwise necessary. So, I will, for convenience sake refer to it as [reasons] (however justified God feels they are). Your claim is, God allows suffering because of [reasons], and if it weren't for that, we would suffer less. This is because of two reasons:

1) God is working within some sort of limitations, and this is the best he can do (he is impotent),
Yes, this seems to be the case. God needs to allow unrighteousness to show his righteous judgment, mercy, and grace. He needs to allow suffering to show his comfort, and to allow us to be comforters to others. This makes perfect sense. You’re merely trying to spin it negatively (limitations, best he can do, impotent) to try to push people off of a very reasonable defense.
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