Heaven and The Problem of Evil
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19-11-2013, 08:57 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 08:48 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 08:03 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I suppose, but that just seems rather hand-wavy. Typically, when people talk about why free will is so important, the reasons tend to be rather speculative. So it seems just as, if not more speculative to say that it's no longer needed.
Which of their reasons require that free will be eternal?

Quote:What do you mean Adam and Eve were sinless?
I mean they didn’t sin. This was a mutable condition for them.
Quote:Are you blaming all of this on the snake? Something caused them to sin, whether it was their own nature or the snake. Either way, it's something that God created, unless you are arguing that the snake was something that God did not create, had no knowledge of, and could not control.
I’m not particularly blaming anyone, as it doesn’t seem necessary for this discussion.
Quote:I'm not saying he can't have a purpose. I'm saying, whatever that reason is, it results in more suffering than is otherwise necessary. So, I will, for convenience sake refer to it as [reasons] (however justified God feels they are). Your claim is, God allows suffering because of [reasons], and if it weren't for that, we would suffer less. This is because of two reasons:

1) God is working within some sort of limitations, and this is the best he can do (he is impotent),
Yes, this seems to be the case. God needs to allow unrighteousness to show his righteous judgment, mercy, and grace. He needs to allow suffering to show his comfort, and to allow us to be comforters to others. This makes perfect sense. You’re merely trying to spin it negatively (limitations, best he can do, impotent) to try to push people off of a very reasonable defense.

Hmm, creating two sexual creatures, creating a forbidden fruit, creating a tempting snake and knowing what the outcome will be - it's entrapment.

Motives for entrapment? Who knows, but definitely nothing nice.

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19-11-2013, 09:22 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 08:57 AM)Dom Wrote:  Hmm, creating two sexual creatures, creating a forbidden fruit, creating a tempting snake and knowing what the outcome will be - it's entrapment.

Motives for entrapment? Who knows, but definitely nothing nice.
The motive I noted - creating a deeper relationship - is nice.
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19-11-2013, 09:38 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
Besides the fact that Free Will is bullshit anyways, I see it this way.


Eliminating Evil DOES NOT eliminate good.

For instance, the lack of ability to commit rape, murder, etc would not really affect your ability to choose between a salad of a burger.

The salad being the better choice for you.

In a sense,I can't fly, does that make me unaware of the true meaning to being on the ground? Nope, or at least not completely.

Either way, Free Will is bullshit, and their (theists) insistence on trying to square the circle is abhorrent.
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19-11-2013, 09:59 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 09:38 AM)Boysurroundedbymoms Wrote:  Besides the fact that Free Will is bullshit anyways, I see it this way.

Eliminating Evil DOES NOT eliminate good.

For instance, the lack of ability to commit rape, murder, etc would not really affect your ability to choose between a salad of a burger.

The salad being the better choice for you.

In a sense,I can't fly, does that make me unaware of the true meaning to being on the ground? Nope, or at least not completely.

Either way, Free Will is bullshit, and their (theists) insistence on trying to square the circle is abhorrent.
Why is free will bullshit? Depending on your reasoning, you may solve the POE for us yourself.
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19-11-2013, 10:20 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 09:38 AM)Boysurroundedbymoms Wrote:  Eliminating Evil DOES NOT eliminate good.

For instance, the lack of ability to commit rape, murder, etc would not really affect your ability to choose between a salad of a burger.

The salad being the better choice for you.

In a sense,I can't fly, does that make me unaware of the true meaning to being on the ground? Nope, or at least not completely.

Either way, Free Will is bullshit, and their (theists) insistence on trying to square the circle is abhorrent.

Ehhh, not really.

Good and evil is subjective and not absolute. If "evil" is eliminated, there cannot be a "good" as you can't have something be moral without having something that is immoral. Basically, actions take on an amoral sense; therefore, there are no moral consequences for actions because those actions don't have connotative morality attached to them.

Much like a shark. Murder is immoral. Sharks murder, but they aren't immoral. Murdering for them is amoral because they don't have a morality to live by because "good" and "evil" don't exist to them.

So, all the "evil" stuff that is eliminated from heaven will leave only simple actions with no moral connotation.

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19-11-2013, 10:31 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
Sharks don't murder, Kingsy. Dodgy

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19-11-2013, 10:49 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 10:31 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Sharks don't murder, Kingsy. Dodgy

Tell that to the 20 or so people that die every year from sharks.

Tongue

But yeah, that's my point. Sharks can't "murder" despite the fact that they kill humans. They have no moral obligation to it.

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19-11-2013, 10:53 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 10:49 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 10:31 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Sharks don't murder, Kingsy. Dodgy

Tell that to the 20 or so people that die every year from sharks.

Tongue

But yeah, that's my point. Sharks can't "murder" despite the fact that they kill humans. They have no moral obligation to it.

Murder is a legal term, Kingsy, involving premeditation and humans. Using it otherwise is an appeal to emotion. Tongue

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19-11-2013, 10:56 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
Bear in mind: you can solve the Problem of Evil if you are willing to let go of God being powerful enough to stop it or being willing to stop it. The problem only persists when people refuse to let go of either of those.


(19-11-2013 08:48 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 08:03 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I suppose, but that just seems rather hand-wavy. Typically, when people talk about why free will is so important, the reasons tend to be rather speculative. So it seems just as, if not more speculative to say that it's no longer needed.
Which of their reasons require that free will be eternal?
This is basically speculation of something that is speculative. That being said, it seems rather cruel to give people free will for a finite number of years, judge them on their decisions, and then carry out a punishment/reward system that lasts for infinity years.


(19-11-2013 08:48 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:What do you mean Adam and Eve were sinless?
I mean they didn’t sin. This was a mutable condition for them.
Who made them mutable? Was it in God's control? If God made them sinful or he made them sinless, but able to be transformed into something that's sinful, that's the same thing.


(19-11-2013 08:48 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:Are you blaming all of this on the snake? Something caused them to sin, whether it was their own nature or the snake. Either way, it's something that God created, unless you are arguing that the snake was something that God did not create, had no knowledge of, and could not control.
I’m not particularly blaming anyone, as it doesn’t seem necessary for this discussion.
It is if you're worried about whether or not God was able or willing to deal with the problem. If you're not, then you've already solved the Problem of Evil, and nothing more really needs to be said.


(19-11-2013 08:48 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:I'm not saying he can't have a purpose. I'm saying, whatever that reason is, it results in more suffering than is otherwise necessary. So, I will, for convenience sake refer to it as [reasons] (however justified God feels they are). Your claim is, God allows suffering because of [reasons], and if it weren't for that, we would suffer less. This is because of two reasons:

1) God is working within some sort of limitations, and this is the best he can do (he is impotent),
Yes, this seems to be the case. God needs to allow unrighteousness to show his righteous judgment, mercy, and grace. He needs to allow suffering to show his comfort, and to allow us to be comforters to others. This makes perfect sense. You’re merely trying to spin it negatively (limitations, best he can do, impotent) to try to push people off of a very reasonable defense.
Then you've solved the Problem of Evil. God isn't powerful enough to deal with evil. This just seems to run contrary to the whole Christian salvation notion of Jesus conquering sin and death... because apparently YHWH can't. Or at least not without jumping through a whole lot of hoops.
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19-11-2013, 10:57 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 09:22 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 08:57 AM)Dom Wrote:  Hmm, creating two sexual creatures, creating a forbidden fruit, creating a tempting snake and knowing what the outcome will be - it's entrapment.

Motives for entrapment? Who knows, but definitely nothing nice.
The motive I noted - creating a deeper relationship - is nice.

Why not create that in the first place? Why all the mumbo jumbo?

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