Heaven and The Problem of Evil
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19-11-2013, 10:59 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 10:57 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 09:22 AM)alpha male Wrote:  The motive I noted - creating a deeper relationship - is nice.

Why not create that in the first place? Why all the mumbo jumbo?

Because prophets need employment too, sillies. Tongue

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19-11-2013, 11:01 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 10:20 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Ehhh, not really.

Good and evil is subjective and not absolute. If "evil" is eliminated, there cannot be a "good" as you can't have something be moral without having something that is immoral. Basically, actions take on an amoral sense; therefore, there are no moral consequences for actions because those actions don't have connotative morality attached to them.

Much like a shark. Murder is immoral. Sharks murder, but they aren't immoral. Murdering for them is amoral because they don't have a morality to live by because "good" and "evil" don't exist to them.

So, all the "evil" stuff that is eliminated from heaven will leave only simple actions with no moral connotation.

Do you believe in heaven (or any afterlife)? If so, what do you think it's like?

How much evil does the world need to be able to have/understand/appreciate good? Is it completely balanced (a more evil world is balanced by more good), or does there just need to be some amount of evil for there to be good?
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19-11-2013, 11:04 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 10:57 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 09:22 AM)alpha male Wrote:  The motive I noted - creating a deeper relationship - is nice.

Why not create that in the first place? Why all the mumbo jumbo?

Yeah, that's the problem I started having with apologetics when I was still Christian. That's what happens when you take the end result (the world we live in and can observe), make some assumptions that don't jive too well with it, and then start speculating on ways that might be able to maybe satisfy the two.

Even if you come up with a completely unassailable solution, it's still shamelessly invented.
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19-11-2013, 11:05 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 10:20 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 09:38 AM)Boysurroundedbymoms Wrote:  Eliminating Evil DOES NOT eliminate good.

For instance, the lack of ability to commit rape, murder, etc would not really affect your ability to choose between a salad of a burger.

The salad being the better choice for you.

In a sense,I can't fly, does that make me unaware of the true meaning to being on the ground? Nope, or at least not completely.

Either way, Free Will is bullshit, and their (theists) insistence on trying to square the circle is abhorrent.

Ehhh, not really.

Good and evil is subjective and not absolute. If "evil" is eliminated, there cannot be a "good" as you can't have something be moral without having something that is immoral. Basically, actions take on an amoral sense; therefore, there are no moral consequences for actions because those actions don't have connotative morality attached to them.

Much like a shark. Murder is immoral. Sharks murder, but they aren't immoral. Murdering for them is amoral because they don't have a morality to live by because "good" and "evil" don't exist to them.

So, all the "evil" stuff that is eliminated from heaven will leave only simple actions with no moral connotation.

Good. Who needs that BS anyway. Let's just be happy, junk the good and the evil. Back to paradise. Dunno why we got tricked into being cast out anyways.

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19-11-2013, 11:09 AM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2013 11:25 AM by docskeptic.)
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(18-11-2013 09:39 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I really with Christians would talk more about heaven in Bible studies and ask these sorts of questions.

Rob,
Couldn't agree more. The whole topic of heaven is so hopelessly muddled that it is no wonder controversy swirls around it. Consider the following heavens that we know of:

1. We have the classic concept of heaven "in the sky" where fowls and eagles dwell (Gen. 2 and 7) - the First Heaven

2. Second Heaven or deep space as in Psalm 19:1 “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork.”

3. 2 Cor.12:2. Paul is taken up to the Third Heaven (the abode of God and his angels) - wherever that is.

4. The descriptions used throughout this thread such as streets of gold or stuff made of jasper all refer to New Jerusalem, an improbable cubic city (1000 miles to each side!) which descends from heaven near the Temple Mount after the millenium. I suspect many Christians also mix up the descriptions. This city is part of the "New Earth" (Rev. 21)

5. There is also a "New Heaven" in Rev. 21-no further descriptions given.

So context is vital when one is talking about heaven. I suspect that in most people's heads all the above descriptions float vaguely around giving rise to a composite heaven.

The problem is compounded when we also consider the different levels of hell.

Doc
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19-11-2013, 11:13 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
I understand purgatory was abolished.

So, god changed his mind about that? Or was it made up in the first place? Tongue

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19-11-2013, 11:24 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 10:56 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Bear in mind: you can solve the Problem of Evil if you are willing to let go of God being powerful enough to stop it or being willing to stop it. The problem only persists when people refuse to let go of either of those.
Not exactly. Consider the case of god being able but not willing to stop evil. You jump to the conclusion that god is therefore malevolent. However, this is not a given. If god has good purposes in mind which require evil, then god can be both good and able while allowing evil.
Quote:This is basically speculation of something that is speculative. That being said, it seems rather cruel to give people free will for a finite number of years, judge them on their decisions, and then carry out a punishment/reward system that lasts for infinity years.
It doesn’t seem cruel if you’re on the reward side.

Quote:Who made them mutable? Was it in God's control? If God made them sinful or he made them sinless, but able to be transformed into something that's sinful, that's the same thing.

It is if you're worried about whether or not God was able or willing to deal with the problem. If you're not, then you've already solved the Problem of Evil, and nothing more really needs to be said.
Covered above – god can be able to deal with the problem, but have his own good reasons to allow it.

Quote:Then you've solved the Problem of Evil. God isn't powerful enough to deal with evil.
Sure he is. You note yourself that evil ends up being punished eternally. God has the power to deal with evil, but he chooses to allow it temporarily for his own purposes.
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19-11-2013, 11:32 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
Alpha Male, do you believe God allows evil or governs evil?

Also, do you think God created evil?

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19-11-2013, 11:36 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
Yabut. Having "purposes in mind that require evil" ain't Good. And! It's moral relativism. Tongue

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19-11-2013, 11:36 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 11:32 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Alpha Male, do you believe God allows evil or governs evil?

Also, do you think God created evil?
Allows - yes, governs - need further definition of govern as you're using it here, created - no.
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