Heaven and The Problem of Evil
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19-11-2013, 11:38 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 11:36 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Yabut. Having "purposes in mind that require evil" ain't Good.
Your bare assertion is noted.
Quote:And! It's moral relativism. Tongue
So what?
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19-11-2013, 11:41 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 11:13 AM)Dom Wrote:  I understand purgatory was abolished.

Ya, by a papal bull.

Quote:So, god changed his mind about that? Or was it made up in the first place?

Ya, by papal "bull"!

Doc
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19-11-2013, 11:47 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 11:38 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 11:36 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Yabut. Having "purposes in mind that require evil" ain't Good.
Your bare assertion is noted.
Quote:And! It's moral relativism. Tongue
So what?

My point in this whole exercise is that the problem of evil disappears when one loses the naïve concept that god is good. Thumbsup

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19-11-2013, 11:54 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 11:24 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 10:56 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Bear in mind: you can solve the Problem of Evil if you are willing to let go of God being powerful enough to stop it or being willing to stop it. The problem only persists when people refuse to let go of either of those.
Not exactly. Consider the case of god being able but not willing to stop evil. You jump to the conclusion that god is therefore malevolent. However, this is not a given. If god has good purposes in mind which require evil, then god can be both good and able while allowing evil.
Well, actually, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion of him being malevolent in this case. What you are suggesting is more of a limitation on God's power to the point of not being able to stop it. So, given that lack of ability, then answering whether or not he is also willing leaves us with "then he is impotent/not omnipotent" (he is willing but not able) or "why call him God?" (he is neither able or willing).


(19-11-2013 11:24 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:That being said, it seems rather cruel to give people free will for a finite number of years, judge them on their decisions, and then carry out a punishment/reward system that lasts for infinity years.
It doesn’t seem cruel if you’re on the reward side.
Too bad, given the current demographics, no less than two thirds are on the wrong side.

Also, while "Problem of Evil" is a well known name for this dilemma, in discussion, it is often expanded to ask why God would allow evil and suffering. Granted, I didn't state that in the OP, so I suppose you can accuse me of shifting the goal posts. Regardless, I cannot fathom any meaningful definition of "omnibenevolent" that involves willful (and infinite!) torture. So, I'd toss this version of the free will defense into the "he is malevolent" bucket.


(19-11-2013 11:24 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:Who made them mutable? Was it in God's control? If God made them sinful or he made them sinless, but able to be transformed into something that's sinful, that's the same thing.

It is if you're worried about whether or not God was able or willing to deal with the problem. If you're not, then you've already solved the Problem of Evil, and nothing more really needs to be said.
Covered above – god can be able to deal with the problem, but have his own good reasons to allow it.
The problem is, these [reasons] are either going to be based on a limitation that God has to work around (he is not omnipotent) or something that he chooses to impose without having to (he is malevolent). That's really it. Those are the only two conclusions to that line of reasoning. If he can't work around [something] and is doing the best that he can, then it falls into the "he's impotent/not omnipotent" quadrant. If he isn't working around anything and is simply doing this because he wants to, than the evil and suffering are gratuitous and this places him squarely in the "he's malevolent" quadrant.


(19-11-2013 11:24 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:Then you've solved the Problem of Evil. God isn't powerful enough to deal with evil.
Sure he is. You note yourself that evil ends up being punished eternally. God has the power to deal with evil, but he chooses to allow it temporarily for his own purposes.
See my above response.
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19-11-2013, 11:56 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 11:47 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  My point in this whole exercise is that the problem of evil disappears when one loses the naïve concept that god is good. Thumbsup
As it's not my position that god is not good, it made no sense to quote me, if this truly is your point.
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19-11-2013, 12:00 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 11:36 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 11:32 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Alpha Male, do you believe God allows evil or governs evil?

Also, do you think God created evil?
Allows - yes, governs - need further definition of govern as you're using it here, created - no.

If God did not create evil, what created it? What created the thing that created evil?


(19-11-2013 11:47 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  My point in this whole exercise is that the problem of evil disappears when one loses the naïve concept that god is good. Thumbsup

This is true.
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19-11-2013, 12:40 PM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2013 12:50 PM by Chas.)
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 11:36 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 11:32 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Alpha Male, do you believe God allows evil or governs evil?

Also, do you think God created evil?
Allows - yes, governs - need further definition of govern as you're using it here, created - no.

Well, the Bible says that God created evil, so there's that.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. — Isaiah 45:7

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-11-2013, 12:42 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 11:54 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Well, actually, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion of him being malevolent in this case. What you are suggesting is more of a limitation on God's power to the point of not being able to stop it. So, given that lack of ability, then answering whether or not he is also willing leaves us with "then he is impotent/not omnipotent" (he is willing but not able) or "why call him God?" (he is neither able or willing).
Again, he’s able to stop it, but he has a goal which requires it. That someone doesn’t do something doesn’t necessarily mean they’re unable to do it.

Quote:Too bad, given the current demographics, no less than two thirds are on the wrong side.

Also, while "Problem of Evil" is a well known name for this dilemma, in discussion, it is often expanded to ask why God would allow evil and suffering. Granted, I didn't state that in the OP, so I suppose you can accuse me of shifting the goal posts.
No problem. I’ve already referenced suffering at times as I agree they’re linked.
Quote:Regardless, I cannot fathom any meaningful definition of "omnibenevolent" that involves willful (and infinite!) torture.
Me neither. That’s why I don’t hold that god is omnibenevolent.
Quote: So, I'd toss this version of the free will defense into the "he is malevolent" bucket.
This is not a necessary conclusion, as an act may be neither benevolent nor malevolent. We don’t consider a judge to be malevolent for sentencing a criminal to punishment, yet he’s obviously not being benevolent, either.
Quote: The problem is, these [reasons] are either going to be based on a limitation that God has to work around (he is not omnipotent)
First, it doesn’t bother me if god isn’t omnipotent, as that’s really not a claim of the bible. Most English translations refer to god as almighty, not omnipotent.

Second, as already noted, god does indeed deal with evil effectively, but he does so on his own timetable.
Quote:or something that he chooses to impose
No, he chooses to allow, with longsuffering on his part.
Quote:without having to (he is malevolent). That's really it. Those are the only two conclusions to that line of reasoning.
No, you can also conclude that god has a good purpose which will be accomplished through the evil/suffering.
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19-11-2013, 12:45 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 11:56 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 11:47 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  My point in this whole exercise is that the problem of evil disappears when one loses the naïve concept that god is good. Thumbsup
As it's not my position that god is not good, it made no sense to quote me, if this truly is your point.

You posted "so what?" So! I what-ed. Big Grin

And if that's not your position, what is? Come out of the bushes, now. Wink

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19-11-2013, 12:50 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 12:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  Well, the Bible says that God created evil, so there's that.

Isaiah 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Amos 3: 6, "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"

Lam. 3: 38, "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"

Doc
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