Heaven and The Problem of Evil
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19-11-2013, 01:02 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 11:36 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 11:32 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Alpha Male, do you believe God allows evil or governs evil?

Also, do you think God created evil?
Allows - yes, governs - need further definition of govern as you're using it here, created - no.

If God didn't create it and it exists, the God isn't omnipotent.

Also, what are your apologetics for these verses:

Isaiah 45:7 Hebrew here.

And no, it's not translated as "calamity".

Word that is used is "ra". Defined here.

Follow that link and search for "Isaiah 45:7". You'll see the specific definition of it for that verse. It is defined as a masculine noun and absolute and means: evil, distress, adversity, or calamity.

"Calamity" is used in Amos 6:3 (here) and is associated with a day or an event and not a person or being.

"Evil" is the proper translation when in context of an action of a being.

You can look it up.

Likewise, Amos 3:6 (here) states (uses the same "ra" as the Isaiah verse) that the city does evil and that God did it. The Hebrew shows that God is directly acting over the action; therefore, He is "doing" the evil of the city.

Again, look it up.

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19-11-2013, 01:04 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 12:42 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Again, he’s able to stop it, but he has a goal which requires it. That someone doesn’t do something doesn’t necessarily mean they’re unable to do it.
Okay. I was conflating the two. Still, it'd be nice to know what that goal is, since all of the stuff along the way looks pretty unnecessary...


(19-11-2013 12:42 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Me neither. That’s why I don’t hold that god is omnibenevolent.

...

First, it doesn’t bother me if god isn’t omnipotent, as that’s really not a claim of the bible. Most English translations refer to god as almighty, not omnipotent.
Well, that solves the Problem of Evil, then, so long as you're willing to admit that. My OP mainly is talking about people who insist they can solve the Problem of Evil while maintaining God still has those two properties.


(19-11-2013 12:42 PM)alpha male Wrote:  This is not a necessary conclusion, as an act may be neither benevolent nor malevolent. We don’t consider a judge to be malevolent for sentencing a criminal to punishment, yet he’s obviously not being benevolent, either.

...

No, he chooses to allow, with longsuffering on his part.
However, a judge is working within a framework that he as no control over. He doesn't have the ability to modify the laws, nor did he create them. Typically, these types of God -> human analogies don't work well unless you are positing a God that has no control over heaven, hell, or morality. You would have to argue that God is powerless to get rid of hell.


(19-11-2013 12:42 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Second, as already noted, god does indeed deal with evil effectively, but he does so on his own timetable.
I need you to elaborate on that one. What do you mean that he deals with it effectively?

From a Christian perspective, the eternal reward and punishment system has nothing to do with evil or morality, and everything to do with whether or not you swore an oath of fealty to Jesus. The framework literally holds that you could burn down an orphanage and accept Jesus as your lord and savior and be rewarded or that you could build several orphanages and not accept Jesus and be punished.

I'm assuming you're talking about something else? What is the criteria for reward and punishment?



(19-11-2013 12:42 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:without having to (he is malevolent). That's really it. Those are the only two conclusions to that line of reasoning.
No, you can also conclude that god has a good purpose which will be accomplished through the evil/suffering.
What is that purpose? Without knowing what it is, can you understand why I paraphrase the entire thing as "[reasons]"? From an outside perspective, being presented with a non-falsifiable, non-answer isn't very compelling.
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19-11-2013, 01:10 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 12:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  Well, the Bible says that God created evil, so there's that.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. — Isaiah 45:7
While that's an acceptable translation, it's not the necessary translation. The Hebrew word translated "evil" is also translated as trouble, affliction, and adversity elsewhere in the OT.
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19-11-2013, 01:34 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 01:10 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 12:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  Well, the Bible says that God created evil, so there's that.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. — Isaiah 45:7
While that's an acceptable translation, it's not the necessary translation. The Hebrew word translated "evil" is also translated as trouble, affliction, and adversity elsewhere in the OT.

Yes, it IS the necessary translation. The most accurate literal translations (YLT and Darby) translate it this way.

Yes, the word can be used as trouble, afflication, and adversity but as I said earlier, it depends on the context of the verse and the action of the subject.

The most accurate translation in these verses is plain, simple "evil".

Any other context would not make sense.

In fact, the world used for "create" or "formed" in Isaiah is used in a very unusual way as it is used in the same way as it was in Genesis when God "created". So, it's saying that God did these things from Creation.

In context, you have to compare it to the word that it is compared against - "peace".

This word is the same word that is used in Isaiah 48. It describes "well being" or "peace" in regards to the wicked. There is no peace for the wicked (v22); this shows a sense of good and evil. And in v18 it is compared to parallel to righteousness in regards to good.

There is no possible "translation" issue here. The context is so blatantly clear. The author meant "evil".

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19-11-2013, 01:47 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
Uh oh. Kingsy's greeting feisty. Big Grin

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19-11-2013, 01:54 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 01:47 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Uh oh. Kingsy's greeting feisty. Big Grin

It's just I don't get how someone can claim an omnipotent God and then say that He didn't create something that is clearly in existence because 1) that makes Him not omnipotent and 2) it states it in the Bible.

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19-11-2013, 01:58 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 01:54 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 01:47 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Uh oh. Kingsy's greeting feisty. Big Grin

It's just I don't get how someone can claim an omnipotent God and then say that He didn't create something that is clearly in existence because 1) that makes Him not omnipotent and 2) it states it in the Bible.

Indeed.

If you accept the premise the God is omnipotent, the He must necessarily be the source of everything.

Anything else is incoherent. Well, not that omnipotence itself is a coherent concept, but if you're accepting the premise then you're not concerned with that Wink.

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19-11-2013, 02:01 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 01:34 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Yes, it IS the necessary translation. The most accurate literal translations (YLT and Darby) translate it this way.
No, it's not the necessary translation. For instance, the ESV and NASB say calamity, and the NIV says disaster.
Quote:Yes, the word can be used as trouble, afflication, and adversity but as I said earlier, it depends on the context of the verse and the action of the subject.

The most accurate translation in these verses is plain, simple "evil".

Any other context would not make sense.
I disagree. I think evil is a poor contrast to peace, and trouble or the like make more sense.
Quote:In fact, the world used for "create" or "formed" in Isaiah is used in a very unusual way as it is used in the same way as it was in Genesis when God "created". So, it's saying that God did these things from Creation.

In context, you have to compare it to the word that it is compared against - "peace".

This word is the same word that is used in Isaiah 48. It describes "well being" or "peace" in regards to the wicked. There is no peace for the wicked (v22); this shows a sense of good and evil. And in v18 it is compared to parallel to righteousness in regards to good.
And in Isaiah 41 it's used ion the sense of safety, and in 39 it's used as peace, but not in reference to the wicked. Same with 52:7, "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; H7965 that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!"
Quote:There is no possible "translation" issue here. The context is so blatantly clear. The author meant "evil".
The fact that there are differing translations shows that there is a translation issue here.

Interestingly, the Orthodox Jewish translation doesn't even attempt a translation - it just transliterates the Hebrew word.

It is not as blatantly clear as you believe.
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19-11-2013, 02:05 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 01:54 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  It's just I don't get how someone can claim an omnipotent God and then say that He didn't create something that is clearly in existence because 1) that makes Him not omnipotent and 2) it states it in the Bible.
If you're referring to me, you should get your facts straight. I haven't claimed that god is omnipotent. I said to Robby:

"First, it doesn’t bother me if god isn’t omnipotent, as that’s really not a claim of the bible. Most English translations refer to god as almighty, not omnipotent."
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19-11-2013, 02:09 PM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(19-11-2013 01:58 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 01:54 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  It's just I don't get how someone can claim an omnipotent God and then say that He didn't create something that is clearly in existence because 1) that makes Him not omnipotent and 2) it states it in the Bible.

Indeed.

If you accept the premise the God is omnipotent, the He must necessarily be the source of everything.

Anything else is incoherent. Well, not that omnipotence itself is a coherent concept, but if you're accepting the premise then you're not concerned with that Wink.

MOREOVER

If He created everything, then He also created our morality. In that, God is in NO WAY obligated to our morality. God is autonomous. We are governed by His morality that He created for us, but He isn't governed by that same morality.

Heck, He isn't governed by any morality... God is amoral in a sense because there is no moral standard that can be compared to. Our immorality isn't immoral to God... like the shark.

So what we know as "evil" or "good" only applies to humanity... and certainly not God. An omnipotent being can't be governed by moral standards anyway because He would lose His omnipotence.

His morals are His own, His own standard, cannot be judged.

With that knowledge, it's easy to see how and why God created "evil" for humanity. It wasn't "evil" for God... it was a device used for His plan for humanity.

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