Heaven and The Problem of Evil
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28-02-2014, 07:19 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(27-02-2014 11:36 PM)donotwant Wrote:  A dude who takes Christianity VERY seriously told me that you actually don't have free will in heaven and the only reason why we have free will on earth is to be able to choose between christianity or hell. How do you like that?

It solves the free will issue, although you're still left spending an eternity with someone who decided that before you get to hang out with him, he's going to give you a very bizarre (and not necessarily apparent) choice between him and torture. Awesome.


It's funny that you responded to this. I was just thinking about this thread last night for some reason.
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28-02-2014, 07:26 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
Btw he is saying that heaven is basically a lucid dream where you get everything you want right when you want it. And you can feel good just when you want to. And you can't feel bad and you never want to feel bad. You are unable to feel bad. And your friends who burn in hell forever? They are REPLACED with perfect copies and you don't even think about those real ones which are in hell.
And those which are in hell? They are kept in individual chambers in loneliness being tortured in most horrible possible way and are unable to feel anything good. So basically they give you perfect body which is designed only for suffering.

And god? He loves you so much he cried all your life when you were going to hell but he did all he could to save yo from the hell he designed but you just fucked it up so sorry boy you are gonna be tortured forever now while your clone will entertain your christian friends in heaven so they won't think about you^^

He is really nice guy btw. He loves people and helps them and always smiling. And he said those things with huge smile on his face. He was studying to become a minister and is really nice guy. It's amazing.
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28-02-2014, 08:49 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(28-02-2014 07:26 AM)donotwant Wrote:  He is really nice guy btw. He loves people and helps them and always smiling. And he said those things with huge smile on his face. He was studying to become a minister and is really nice guy. It's amazing.

Yeah, there's a lot to be said for someone who is cool with that level of torture for any reason. He'll tell you he doesn't understand the reasons, but he ultimately agrees with them, and feels this judgment is truly good, right, and proper.

Of course, this is likely explained by cognitive dissonance, and that nice guy doesn't really like or agree with torture, but he sort of feels trapped in justifying it.
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28-02-2014, 08:51 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(28-02-2014 08:49 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(28-02-2014 07:26 AM)donotwant Wrote:  He is really nice guy btw. He loves people and helps them and always smiling. And he said those things with huge smile on his face. He was studying to become a minister and is really nice guy. It's amazing.

Yeah, there's a lot to be said for someone who is cool with that level of torture for any reason. He'll tell you he doesn't understand the reasons, but he ultimately agrees with them, and feels this judgment is truly good, right, and proper.

Of course, this is likely explained by cognitive dissonance, and that nice guy doesn't really like or agree with torture, but he sort of feels trapped in justifying it.

He sees it like there is hell and we walk into it ourselves and lock the doors and god is crying because he doesn't want us to do it.
He also said god made the rules but after he made em he can't change em and doesn't want to either.
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28-02-2014, 09:17 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(28-02-2014 08:51 AM)donotwant Wrote:  He also said god made the rules but after he made em he can't change em and doesn't want to either.

Ask him if he believes God can see the future infallibly. If he says yes, then that means that God made the rules with full knowledge who would and wouldn't follow them. So, that's why he doesn't want to change them.

Oops.
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28-02-2014, 09:18 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(28-02-2014 09:17 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(28-02-2014 08:51 AM)donotwant Wrote:  He also said god made the rules but after he made em he can't change em and doesn't want to either.

Ask him if he believes God can see the future infallibly. If he says yes, then that means that God made the rules with full knowledge who would and wouldn't follow them. So, that's why he doesn't want to change them.

Oops.

I can't ask him anything now since I don't know where he is XD
Well he said god knows who will end up in hell before he was born. He also knows what he is going to do but since he will do what he wants to do thats no problem for him.
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21-10-2014, 06:26 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
Holy crap! I somehow missed your reply (from, like, ten months ago). Normally, I'd just let that go, but I noticed it seems you logged on somewhat recently, so I might as well reply.


(23-12-2013 02:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  It has to be OUR decision to BECOME like Him. Every spirit(intelligent being) has to make this choice on his/her own.
Test is this:
There is good and evil. By the way how we take evil things and good things in THIS life we either progress(become more like Father) or we destroy ourselves(become like Lucifer).
By having test(CHOICES) we CAN prove to ourselves and to God Heavenly Father that we want to be like Him.

But why do we need to have this test? Why is there evil? Couldn't we just all be like him?


(23-12-2013 02:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  Yes. God obeys eternal laws. All Gods obey eternal laws and that is why they remain to be Gods.

From where do these eternal laws come? What are they?


(23-12-2013 02:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  Do you believe in magic or fairy tails? I don't. To have knowledge without learning is magic/a fairy tail - something that do not exist in REAL world.
Even Gods have to have learning process for may be millions/billons of years before they become Gods.
And when or if we get to heaven we will still continue to learn more before we become Gods/like Gods

No offense intended, but you understand why I'm going to be equally credulous of an invisible, nonfalsifiable entity as I am a fairy tale, right?

Does the Bible or Book of Mormon explicitly state that God cannot give us knowledge, or is this the logical extension of apologetics?


(23-12-2013 02:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  I am telling you about true God and not about god who is made up by many religions. True God has nothing to do with magic. True God does REAL things in REAL world.
God Yahweh never said that He has ABSOLUTE power ABSOLUTELLY everywhere. And He never called Himself an Absolute. This is what false religions call Him.
If true God looks weaker than false god/gods than it is only because true God is not fairy tail god but REAL God. Only in magical world EVERYTHING or ANYTHING is possible.

"Magic" is a place-holder term for things that are supernatural and/or unexplainable. Yes, if God does exist, then the things he does would be natural, by definition.

Still, my point is, God has abilities above and beyond what people have, and people have limitations that God does not. Because of these differences, God->human analogies almost always fail. They always revolve around people making decisions with less knowledge than God would have, applying judgments or penalties confined within rules they didn't create, or giving people "bitter medicine" when they could instead just cure the illness with will alone. If your counter is that the differences between God and man are not this great and the analogy is good, then I would counter "why call him God?".

So, "magic" doesn't have anything to do with it as mush as the differences between God and man.


(23-12-2013 02:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  In real world real Gods work. If God becomes lazy He or She can not be God anymore.
The point of eternal life or being Gods is to have ETERNAL HAPPINESS.
True and eternal principle is this: when you do something by working hard and then get good results you will have HAPPINESS.
Try to create something beautiful or useful and see how much you will ENJOY your TIME by DOING/creating it. This is the point of eternal life - ENJOY everything fully without any limitations.
ALL earthly things are in image and likeness of ALL heavenly things.

If God created all of the physical universe in six days, the amount of effort it takes him to do things is pretty minimal. Maybe it takes X units of GodPower or something, but based on the source material, he's explicitly pretty powerful. If he literally created all of the plants in the world inside of a day, I don't see how my statement of willing crops into existence instead of growing them has anything to do with "laziness".

Let me put it this way: When God created the universe, did he do it in a lazy way or not?

If yes, then isn't your point moot?

If no, then couldn't God still do vastly world-affecting things with X effort (non-zero) in less than a day and make your point moot?


(23-12-2013 02:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  what you want to know is a very heavy stuff. But this is what I can tell you.
Our God Father has His God. And that God has His God.
And there is eternal matter that never was created by anybody. And there are eternal laws. And if intelligent beings want to become Gods they have to obey those eternal laws. To be God is to have capacity to take eternal matter and create/organize things.
And our God is not the first God and not the last God. He is the first and the last but ONLY for us and ONLY in His worlds/in the worlds that He creates.
"all-powerful" and "all-knowing", and "the first and the last", "in the beginning" is not absolute thing but relative.

So, I don't know that much about Mormonism. Does it posit an all-powerful God at the top of all the others? Is this something explicitly stated, or is this god's existence or non-existence assumed?


(23-12-2013 02:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  That is funny how they call your wife. I also have a question.
How are you planning to teach your kids about God? Will you let her to teach them religious things? Will she let you to teach them atheism?
It is interesting how families solve those problems.
I know it may be very confusing for kids. But I think the best way is to be good examples and teach them to be kind, honest, caring...

My wife is raising them Christian. I'm not really planning on "teaching them atheism". I think they already started out atheist. They're learning Christianity. I plan on teaching them to be critical of the things they learn so they can try to discern things for themselves.

That being said, the older of my two daughters knows I don't believe in God. It's not something she can really wrap her head around, although, I honestly don't think she wraps her head around belief, either. I could tell she had talked to my wife recently when she asked me out of the blue "Daddy, why don't you believe in things you can't see?". She followed that up with telling me how you can feel God in your heart and that's how you know he's real, then asking me "Do you believe now?". It was kind of cute in a way, but at this point, she's just parroting things she's been told.

I have no idea how the two of them will turn out. My wife could be described as a very liberal Christian. She believe everyone will go to heaven, doesn't believe in hell, and is willing to throw out vast portions of the Bible if they don't suit her. My daughters will be getting a pretty watered-down version of Christianity as a result.



Anyway, sorry about missing your post. I don't know if you'll see this, or not.
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21-10-2014, 07:09 AM
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
(20-12-2013 08:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  Our God Father has His God. And that God has His God.
And there is eternal matter that never was created by anybody. And there are eternal laws. And if intelligent beings want to become Gods they have to obey those eternal laws. To be God is to have capacity to take eternal matter and create/organize things.
And our God is not the first God and not the last God. He is the first and the last but ONLY for us and ONLY in His worlds/in the worlds that He creates.
"all-powerful" and "all-knowing", and "the first and the last", "in the beginning" is not absolute thing but relative.

You have run into the problem of infinite regress here, then you say eternal matter is not created, but to be god you take eternal matter and create things with it. Umm no, that's a blatant contradiction.

To use terms like all-powerful etc. are meaningless terms that are entirely imaginary concepts made up by us, so yes, imaginary concepts are relative to the person that imagines them, they have no reality in this world or any other imaginary universe.

The tree of delusion is nourished by the vague promises and skewed perception of prayer. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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21-10-2014, 07:21 AM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2014 07:28 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Heaven and The Problem of Evil
I didn't want to Necro this thread, but since it popped up, I wanted to add my two cents.
The idea that god cannot create a place with free will without suffering severely limits this god's power. If you go to heaven and you have no memories of your past (something asserted by many theists) then you are no longer you, you have lost your identity, and now you're just a drone for the purpose of praising and worshiping a malicious tyrant in a place of his own making.
What is the real hell here? A place where you no longer have memories or feelings of who you once were, where you lose your identity? Or a place that you do have memories and your own identity, but you don't have to constantly praise the mad tyrant as an automaton?

It occurred to me that YHWH is really Thanos:

[Image: ThanosAvengersAssemble.jpg]

The bible suddenly becomes much more consistent when you realize your god is not good, it's just a power-mad dictator that demands obedience at the expense of free will.

This "god" was made up by men that were strictly the product of their time, no more, no less. It punishes infinitely for finite crimes, it is unjust and genocidal, just like the ancient kings of that time were. YHWH is a perfect reflection of the ancient kings that ruled during the time that the bible was written, the scribes that wrote it, simply mirrored the examples of powerful humans around them. God is jealous, wrathful, demands obedience, will punish and even kill you for even questioning him- just like an ancient king.

The tree of delusion is nourished by the vague promises and skewed perception of prayer. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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