Heaven argument of a theist
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22-11-2013, 08:41 AM
Heaven argument of a theist
"Of course there is freewill in heaven. The devil chose to betray god so there must be freewill or else he couldn't have betrayed god right?" said a theist.
What should I say to him?
(my plan is to ask him "So there is freewill in heaven, What is the difference between heaven and Earth then?")

I got Dysgraphia and i am not living in the US so plz forgive my poor english.
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22-11-2013, 08:43 AM
RE: Heaven argument of a theist
Heaven is supposed to be a place free of bad things. There is no sorrow, no hurt, no voilence, all love.
1. Does free will exist include the ability to commit crimes against another?
2. If crimes against another person causes harm and sorrow and sorrow is not present in heaven, how can free will exist in heaven then if committing freewill actions will result in a state incompatible with heavn?

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22-11-2013, 08:49 AM
RE: Heaven argument of a theist
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Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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22-11-2013, 09:06 AM
RE: Heaven argument of a theist
Seems you're already too far down the rabbit hole. Tongue

Devil's more an agent of god than a betrayer of god. Isn't that Dante shit?

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22-11-2013, 10:04 AM
RE: Heaven argument of a theist
(22-11-2013 08:41 AM)bustead Wrote:  "Of course there is freewill in heaven. The devil chose to betray god so there must be freewill or else he couldn't have betrayed god right?" said a theist.
What should I say to him?
(my plan is to ask him "So there is freewill in heaven, What is the difference between heaven and Earth then?")

The obvious difference is that Earth actually exists.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-11-2013, 10:46 AM
RE: Heaven argument of a theist
(22-11-2013 08:41 AM)bustead Wrote:  "Of course there is freewill in heaven. The devil chose to betray god so there must be freewill or else he couldn't have betrayed god right?" said a theist.
What should I say to him?
(my plan is to ask him "So there is freewill in heaven, What is the difference between heaven and Earth then?")
God supposedly has omniscience so he can foresee everything that will happen in the future. Per other threads detailing the reasons, that leads to the conclusion that there is no free will. When people sin on Earth, God knows everything that will happen, but allows it all anyway and sends them to hell for it even though they really had no choice. When the devil betrayed God, same thing - God knew it would happen and sent the devil to hell for it. The devil had no free will.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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22-11-2013, 01:52 PM
RE: Heaven argument of a theist
(22-11-2013 08:43 AM)FaceOfBoe Wrote:  1. Does free will exist include the ability to commit crimes against another?

Free will is always restricted by the parameters of the system in which the free willed being exists. I can choose to jump off a cliff in order to fly like a bird but I will still fall like a rock to my death. Freewill doesn't allow me to violate the laws of physics.

In heaven, presumably you do not have the ability to commit crimes against another but maybe you have the ability to jump off a cliff and fly like a bird. I don't think you can say you have less free will in heaven then you do on earth until you get to heaven and compare the choices you are allowed to make.

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23-11-2013, 08:57 AM
RE: Heaven argument of a theist
(22-11-2013 01:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 08:43 AM)FaceOfBoe Wrote:  1. Does free will exist include the ability to commit crimes against another?

Free will is always restricted by the parameters of the system in which the free willed being exists. I can choose to jump off a cliff in order to fly like a bird but I will still fall like a rock to my death. Freewill doesn't allow me to violate the laws of physics.

In heaven, presumably you do not have the ability to commit crimes against another but maybe you have the ability to jump off a cliff and fly like a bird. I don't think you can say you have less free will in heaven then you do on earth until you get to heaven and compare the choices you are allowed to make.

Thus there is no devil since no crime can be commited in heaven?

I got Dysgraphia and i am not living in the US so plz forgive my poor english.
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23-11-2013, 08:21 PM
RE: Heaven argument of a theist
(22-11-2013 08:41 AM)bustead Wrote:  "Of course there is freewill in heaven. The devil chose to betray god so there must be freewill or else he couldn't have betrayed god right?" said a theist.
What should I say to him?
(my plan is to ask him "So there is freewill in heaven, What is the difference between heaven and Earth then?")

Why do you let him even assert the existence of either without proof? No

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23-11-2013, 08:28 PM
RE: Heaven argument of a theist
Say to him that of heaven has free will then heaven can become corrupt by human action just like here on earth. That would make heaven imperfect.

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