Heaven argument of a theist
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23-11-2013, 08:38 PM
RE: Heaven argument of a theist
Ask him if he is a "Bible believing" person.
Then ask him to show you ONE place in the Bible that says the angels rebelled, and fell from grace.
(There is NO place that mentions it. NOWHERE).
Then ask him why he makes up shit.
Then tell him to read Dr. Elaine Pagels (Princeton University scholar) "The Origins of Satan".

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Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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25-11-2013, 09:22 AM
RE: Heaven argument of a theist
(22-11-2013 08:41 AM)bustead Wrote:  "Of course there is freewill in heaven. The devil chose to betray god so there must be freewill or else he couldn't have betrayed god right?" said a theist.
What should I say to him?
(my plan is to ask him "So there is freewill in heaven, What is the difference between heaven and Earth then?")

I started a thread pretty much on the same topic a few days ago. He could argue that we have free will, but only to do good things (or some other weird attempt to have his cake and eat it too), but that begs the question "why are we allowed to do bad things here?".

Free will is the crux of most modern apologetics, now. It basically tries to explain why we have evil and suffering in this world. Anyone who believes in a "typical" version of heaven either believes there is no free will in heaven (so why do we need it here?), or there is free will in heaven, but we only do nice things (so why do we suffer and have evil here?). There is no magical third version. The typical Christian view of heaven violates the typical apologetic attempts to reconcile the Problem of Evil.
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25-11-2013, 11:56 PM
RE: Heaven argument of a theist
(23-11-2013 08:38 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Ask him if he is a "Bible believing" person.
Then ask him to show you ONE place in the Bible that says the angels rebelled, and fell from grace.
(There is NO place that mentions it. NOWHERE).
Then ask him why he makes up shit.
Then tell him to read Dr. Elaine Pagels (Princeton University scholar) "The Origins of Satan".

Yep, the whole fallen angel motif has more to do with John Milton's 'Paradise Lost' than the Bible itself.

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26-11-2013, 12:21 PM
RE: Heaven argument of a theist
(23-11-2013 08:38 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Ask him if he is a "Bible believing" person.
Then ask him to show you ONE place in the Bible that says the angels rebelled, and fell from grace.
(There is NO place that mentions it. NOWHERE).
Then ask him why he makes up shit.

The Bible is actually really weird on this subject. If you grab a handful of different verses, both from the OT and the NT (including Revelations, the book that no one knows what it means!), you can find it mentioned that Lucifer is the Morning Star, and he was cast down from heaven, and he looked like a bolt of lightning, and that he (as a red dragon) was fighting in heaven, and his tail swept a third of the stars from the sky.

Now, you have to put all those pieces together and assume that "stars" mean "angels" (but probably not every time the word star is used in the Bible?), and that the whole "tail sweeping a third of the stars from the sky" means Satan making a third of them fall with him, and not Satan killing a third of them, or Satan actually wiping a third of actual stars (and not angels), or whatever. So, while there is a Biblical reference to Satan doing [something] to a third of [something else], there are several leaps you have to make to get to "a third of the angels fell with Satan".

Also, you have to ignore Revelation 22:16 that says explicitly that Jesus is the bright Morning Star, so there's that. Oh, Christian mythology, you so crazy!
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