Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
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02-06-2016, 04:47 PM
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
(02-06-2016 03:52 PM)LDS1 Wrote:  Let me share one event (of many) that explains what I mean. A friend of mine, Polly, wanted to read aloud scriptures with me - we choose The Book of Mormon. We said a prayer before we started inviting the Spirit so we can understand more deeply what we read. At some point in reading the Spirit fell upon us and we both looked at each other and asked each other "do you feel that?" The Spirit continued to increase and we both sat silently as we enjoyed the companionship of the Holy Ghost. It lasted for several minutes and then lessened in intensity and then it was over. But not the impact.
Sounds like you experienced Euphoria, if it was euphoria then my understanding is that it is a human emotion, an internal reaction (emotion) that many people experience from time to time. I have felt it when I visited Champs Elysees with my wife, or when I went to the Iron Maiden concert with my wife. I have felt it at key moments when I was falling in love with my (to be) wife. I have felt it on my own when listening to some new music, or as a child when I caught my first stingray, or shark.
It is a great feeling. I can understand why you might feel this when reading a passage from your favourite book with a good friend.

However, if this feeling were bestowed upon you from a supernatural entity, I am not convinced that the devil cannot trick you on this.

So in short, I think there are three options:
1. State of Euphoria, a human emotion often felt when doing something that means a great deal to you and often enhanced when doing it with a good friend. - This is a mundain common explaination.
2. A god gave you this experience - This is an extra-ordinary explanation.
3. The devil tricked you into this experience - This is an extra-ordinary explanation or equal likelihood as option 2 above.
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02-06-2016, 05:02 PM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2016 05:06 PM by Rahn127.)
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
LSD1 - I get that you had a feeling and that your friend had a feeling too, but and it's a big but, those feelings are internal.
When you place your brain into a state similar to meditation or deep concentration, your brain state changes.
If you sit on the toilet for over an hour, you may experience something in your legs.
This is not the holy spirit. This is from poor circulation.

You are attributing something that is happening INSIDE your brain to something that you believe is happening elsewhere.

When you fall asleep at night, the state of your brain also changes and you can experience a dream.
You haven't gone anywhere, even though you are experiencing other places and interacting with other people.
All of that is happening INSIDE your brain.

If your brain can produce entire worlds and cities while you dream, don't you think it can produce the kinds of feelings you and your friend felt ?

Let's look at these examples

A young man believes in Zeus and as he walks across the carpet of his living room floor, he touches a door handle and gets a small jolt of static electricity. To him, this is a sign from Zeus himself. He had been praying to Zeus for an answer and the answer was right there in front of him, an open door. He took this to mean that he shouldn't worry, a door will open for him and he will get that new promotion that's he's been working really hard for.

A woman in the middle east prays to Allah because she wants to drive a car. One day, while her and her husband were out in the middle of nowhere, he has a heart attack and she must drive him back to the city to get him help. For her, this was Allah granting her prayer.

LSD1 - I think you can see what is going on here. At least I hope you can.
When people create a belief system, they also create how their gods communicate with them.
It's usually something that happens every day to someone in the world, but each person believes that this every day thing is miraculous, divine, external to their own sense of self, but it's not.

Can you create another example as I have using the god of Thunder - Thor ?
I challenge to write another example. Use your imagination.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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02-06-2016, 05:34 PM
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
(02-06-2016 03:52 PM)LDS1 Wrote:  Second - your mind is filled with light and intelligence, and you feel a deep peace and joy wash over you -

That's what I feel after smoking weed and stepping out into my garden. Tongue

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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02-06-2016, 06:23 PM
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
(02-06-2016 01:22 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(01-06-2016 11:22 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Mercy and self sacrifice for the greater good aren't the same. I agree that both can be used as tools of manipulation. I disagree that they are, in themselves themselves not virtuous and benefitial towards the betterment and or peaceable continued existence of all.

I do not deny that many principalities of an organized religious sort and otherwise indeed use virtuous things in wholly manipulative nagative ways.



Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Then you and I have a fundamental disagreement. I do not believe in Human Sacrifice. There is no greater good than that of the individual. The greater good is a fiction. No greater good can ever justify the sacrifice of the rights of any individual.

This whole notion of mercy and leniency for criminals can be traced directly to the idea of original sin. Who are we to judge? We're all sinners. None of us are good. We're no better after all. This is the view of man promoted by Christianity. Whoever says "who are we to judge" is saying "who are we to think". Evil is not overcome by appeasement, sanction or forgiveness. It must be identified, judged and acted upon accordingly.
I think you may be misunderstanding what I was trying to say.

I do not believe in sacrifice in any form but the self sacrifice of greedy selfish wants or pleasures.

If there was no virtue or reality to selflessness then we wouldn't be able to observe altruism in nature.

I do not believe in taking the rights of others in any way.

I do believe in righteous judgement of others, but that to do so requires much more stringent judgement of oneself in order to rightly discern the actions of others, and even then the chances of seeing even partial motives without any bias may be difficult.

I think we may actually agree more than you know as I am not your stereotypical religious person, and do agree with most of your points.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
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02-06-2016, 06:34 PM
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
(02-06-2016 05:34 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 03:52 PM)LDS1 Wrote:  Second - your mind is filled with light and intelligence, and you feel a deep peace and joy wash over you -

That's what I feel after smoking weed and stepping out into my garden. Tongue
The difference is I don't get the munchies. Angel

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02-06-2016, 06:37 PM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2016 07:02 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
(02-06-2016 10:53 AM)LDS1 Wrote:  Question, how many times of you read the Book Of Mormon cover to cover?

I was courted by a couple of LDS on mission duty and they would come by we would talk and read passages from the Book of Mormon once a week for a month or so. We finally got to the point where intoxicants are prohibited.

Girly: So what you're telling me is that I give up alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, mary jane, and all other intoxicants except Mormon Tea (ephedra has been associated with death) in return for multiple wives, yes?

Mormon: We don't do that multiple wives thing anymore.

Girly: What the fuck. Get out of my house. ... Now.

#sigh
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02-06-2016, 06:38 PM
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
(02-06-2016 06:34 PM)LDS1 Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 05:34 PM)Dom Wrote:  That's what I feel after smoking weed and stepping out into my garden. Tongue
The difference is I don't get the munchies. Angel

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You say it like that's a bad thing.

#sigh
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02-06-2016, 06:55 PM
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
(02-06-2016 06:38 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 06:34 PM)LDS1 Wrote:  The difference is I don't get the munchies. Angel

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You say it like that's a bad thing.
Bad if have no snacks in the house! Angry

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03-06-2016, 06:10 AM
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
(02-06-2016 03:52 PM)LDS1 Wrote:  Stevil, thank you for the question. It is important, as you said, one can be mislead.

Let me share one event (of many) that explains what I mean. A friend of mine, Polly, wanted to read aloud scriptures with me - we choose The Book of Mormon. We said a prayer before we started inviting the Spirit so we can understand more deeply what we read. At some point in reading the Spirit fell upon us and we both looked at each other and asked each other "do you feel that?" The Spirit continued to increase and we both sat silently as we enjoyed the companionship of the Holy Ghost. It lasted for several minutes and then lessened in intensity and then it was over. But not the impact. We both got off the chairs, sat down on the floor, backs to the wall, and spoke quite awhile about what we experienced and what it meant. We felt joy and peace and love.

What does the Spirit feel like? It is unlike any human emotion or thought. If you have not tasted chocolate I doubt I can can describe it sufficiently so you'd get a good idea what it taste like. Similarly, I can try to tell you what it felt like but words are wholly inadequate.

First you know instantly it is from an external source - like the heat of the sun on a warm summer day, you know for certainly it is not self generated. Second - your mind is filled with light and intelligence, and you feel a deep peace and joy wash over you - you know it is the Holy Ghost. The Spirit communicates with our spirit and mind... It teaches truth....in this case the Spirit testified that the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day is the Kindom of God on earth, and that Jesus is the Christ.

Sometimes the witness or message is less broad or about a specific thing... Or it would be far greater in topics.... The point is that intelligence and knowledge and joy and love and peace flow through the power of the Holy Ghost. This is how I know these things to be true.

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Indeed, the Holy Ghost instructed Isaac Haight and John D. Lee, after attending a church service and prayerful consideration, to take care of the Baker-Fancher party.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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03-06-2016, 09:54 AM
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
(31-05-2016 10:47 AM)LDS1 Wrote:  I hear the "There is no evidence" claim a lot. That simply is not the case.
Did it ever occur to you that it could be because it is all a fiction? And you seem to be forgetting that as the proponent of a notion, it's up to you to provide sufficient evidence to support it.

Quote:Even in law eye witness testimony is admissible on court. As are written docs.
Admissible yes, but not necessarily accountable without corroborative empirical evidence. And it's a nonsense to claim that because written documents are admissible as evidence in court, that—by association—this makes your bible a true and accurate historical document.

Quote:Modern day prophets (and ancient) give testimony of having seen God.
There's no such thing as a genuine "modern day" prophet (a person who speaks for God or a deity, or by divine inspiration).

Quote:Written works (scriptures), especially The Book of Mormon, are sufficient information and data for grounds of belief.
No... period.

Quote:Now if I see God or have a personal revelation by the Holy Ghost, is not that evidence, even proof to me, that it is true. Yes, I can't prove it to you, but my witness and testimonial is evidence.
Of course you can't prove your "witness"; it could never have happened—unless you were suffering some sort of major delusional incident or the hallucinatory effects of drugs or alcohol. Or you could simply be lying for the sake of argument.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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