Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
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31-05-2016, 10:47 AM
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
(30-05-2016 10:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no evidence for any of those absurdities. Drinking Beverage

I hear the "There is no evidence" claim a lot. That simply is not the case.

Even law eye witness testimony is admissible on court. As are written docs.

Modern day prophets (and ancient) give testimony of having seen God.

Writen works (scriptures), especially The Book of Mormon, are sufficient information and data for grounds of belief.

What is more, and the greatest of all, is the witness from the Holy Ghost to a person it is true. Now if I see God or have a personal revelation by the Holy Ghost, is not that evidence, even proof to me, that it is true. Yes, I can't prove it to you, but my witness and testimonial is evidence.




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31-05-2016, 10:54 AM
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
(31-05-2016 10:47 AM)LDS1 Wrote:  
(30-05-2016 10:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no evidence for any of those absurdities. Drinking Beverage

I hear the "There is no evidence" claim a lot. That simply is not the case.

Even law eye witness testimony is admissible on court. As are written docs.

Modern day prophets (and ancient) give testimony of having seen God.

Writen works (scriptures), especially The Book of Mormon, are sufficient information and data for grounds of belief.

What is more, and the greatest of all, is the witness from the Holy Ghost to a person it is true. Now if I see God or have a personal revelation by the Holy Ghost, is not that evidence, even proof to me, that it is true. Yes, I can't prove it to you, but my witness and testimonial is evidence.

Testimonials are excellent when deciding between job applicants or deciding which movie to see.

I always seek out at least three referees.

Please provide independent referees for your personal revelation. Two will do.

Looking forward to it.

Thanks. And welcome to TTA.

Big Grin

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31-05-2016, 01:26 PM
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
(31-05-2016 10:54 AM)DLJ Wrote:  ]

Testimonials are excellent when deciding between job applicants or deciding which movie to see.

I always seek out at least three referees.

Please provide independent referees for your personal revelation. Two will do.

Looking forward to it.

Thanks. And welcome to TTA.

Big Grin

If I'm amongst two or more and we have a shared spiritual event, like the day of Pentecost, does that count?
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31-05-2016, 01:45 PM
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
(31-05-2016 01:53 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  So my pre-born self accepted a contract, that my earth-life self was entirely unaware of until someone told me I owe a debt?
.

I like the way you put that. It's a fairly accurate summary. Great job!

A few things. Because there was a fall (Adam/Eve) mankind dies physically and spiritually. Christ's Atonement pays in full for both aspects, but with differences.

The physical death is paid for in full, no debt, meaning, all will be resurrected.

The spiritual death is paid in full as well, but it is a conditional salvation, or better stated, a qualitative salvation. Because there are degrees on glory in the hearafter, some will be like the sun, some like the moon, and others like distance stars in brightness. This depends on one's obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

This who die before the age of eight are saved without condition or debt. That is to say, they are not held accountable to any sins committed. They recieve the highest degrees of glory.

I'm sure you don't see a difference, but I'm saying is there is not just two states: heaven and hell. Rather, there are infinite heavens and glories, and eternal hell is reserved for very few.

This is a far better, far more merciful and loving plan than non-LDS Christians put forth.



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31-05-2016, 01:46 PM
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
(31-05-2016 01:26 PM)LDS1 Wrote:  
(31-05-2016 10:54 AM)DLJ Wrote:  ]

Testimonials are excellent when deciding between job applicants or deciding which movie to see.

I always seek out at least three referees.

Please provide independent referees for your personal revelation. Two will do.

Looking forward to it.

Thanks. And welcome to TTA.

Big Grin

If I'm amongst two or more and we have a shared spiritual event, like the day of Pentecost, does that count?

It might if I knew what it meant.

But 'amongst' doesn't seem to match the 'independent' criteria ... so I suspect that count, it won't.

Better luck next time. And thanks for applying.

Angel

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31-05-2016, 01:52 PM
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
(31-05-2016 01:22 AM)Stevil Wrote:  So it's used as a hook for the churches etc, you need to join the church, obey, follow and give money to avoid going to hell and to get your reward of passing the gates to heaven.

Steve, you are correct, many churches fall into the pattern you described.

1 Nephi 13:

6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

7 And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots.

8 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.

... 27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.


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31-05-2016, 01:55 PM
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
(31-05-2016 01:45 PM)LDS1 Wrote:  
(31-05-2016 01:53 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  So my pre-born self accepted a contract, that my earth-life self was entirely unaware of until someone told me I owe a debt?
.

I like the way you put that. It's a fairly accurate summary. Great job!

A few things. Because there was a fall (Adam/Eve) mankind dies physically and spiritually. Christ's Atonement pays in full for both aspects, but with differences.

The physical death is paid for in full, no debt, meaning, all will be resurrected.

The spiritual death is paid in full as well, but it is a conditional salvation, or better stated, a qualitative salvation. Because there are degrees on glory in the hearafter, some will be like the sun, some like the moon, and others like distance stars in brightness. This depends on one's obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

This who die before the age of eight are saved without condition or debt. That is to say, they are not held accountable to any sins committed. They recieve the highest degrees of glory.

I'm sure you don't see a difference, but I'm saying is there is not just two states: heaven and hell. Rather, there are infinite heavens and glories, and eternal hell is reserved for very few.

This is a far better, far more merciful and loving plan than non-LDS Christians put forth.

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Perhaps you were unaware you are speaking to an evolutionary biologist, though I am now retired from that field. There is nothing in what you have said that comports to what we know about the history of life on earth, including human origins. There was no Adam and Eve, in the sense that you mean it here.

In addition to your dearth of knowledge about the origins of mankind, you should also look into the concept of satire and sarcasm. I was not trying to succinctly lay out the Mormon concept of payment of sin-debts, but to ridicule the idea entirely.

The good news is that your claims are no more (and no less) ridiculous than those of the other charlatans pimping the idea of enforced group conformity through behavioral/thought-shaming (what you call sin). You can see so clearly how silly the claims of the other shamans/priests/clerics are, but wear blinders with regard to your own clerics. Well, we see yours, too.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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31-05-2016, 02:00 PM
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
LSD1 - your personal delusions do not count as evidence.

You cannot make imaginary gods real by believing they are real.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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31-05-2016, 07:00 PM (This post was last modified: 31-05-2016 07:03 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
(31-05-2016 10:47 AM)LDS1 Wrote:  What is more, and the greatest of all, is the witness from the Holy Ghost to a person it is true. Now if I see God or have a personal revelation by the Holy Ghost, is not that evidence, even proof to me, that it is true. Yes, I can't prove it to you, but my witness and testimonial is evidence.

Your witness and testimony is weak. My testimony is that I have seen God up close and personal, face-to-face, and he said "Call me Bob."

[Image: pogo_3.jpg]

#sigh
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31-05-2016, 08:25 PM
RE: Heaven or Hell? You be the judge!
(25-05-2016 06:19 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(25-05-2016 04:58 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  So instead of the Injustice League, they should be called the Mercy League ?

Mercy can given within the confines of Justice.
It's not the opposite of Justice.

Suppose someone damages your property, say they smash up your car with a brick, and you take them to court to sue them for the $6,000 it cost to fix your car and the judge says I find the defendant guilty, he should rightly pay restitution to the car owner, but I'm feeling merciful today. You don't have to pay restitution. How would this be inside the confines of justice?

Also I hold that justice is objective whereas mercy is arbitrary. Justice is the recognition of what is right which is based on facts. Mercy is the suspension of justice or of the recognition of what is right. How are these not contradictory?
The mercy of non payment for damages would only be right if it was the one who's car was damaged that ultimately gave the mercy. The judge finding the perpetrator guilty yet not holding them to restitution would be injustice. The same can't be said if it is the victim who makes the call or chooses mercy.



Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
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