Hell In The Old Testament
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19-05-2013, 06:26 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(17-05-2013 01:55 PM)childeye Wrote:  I beg to differ, it does exist in scripture. We are discussing interpretations of hell from scripture.
That was all I needed to read. After that, I skipped the rest because I'm obviously wasting my time. Come back when you have actually read the scriptures and then maybe we can talk.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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19-05-2013, 09:47 PM (This post was last modified: 20-05-2013 03:22 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(17-05-2013 01:18 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(16-05-2013 06:12 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "but without faith one can never learn."

BULLSHIT! YOU ARE A LIAR!
Faith is an impediment to learning. It dumbs down people. Shame on you for promoting faith as a virtue!
Whoa take it easy. I'm not lying. Let us remember that the topic of Hell is a moral topic. It is about right and wrong regarding how we treat our fellow man. If you do not believe (have faith) that their exists a right or a wrong moral direction than you cannot posiibly learn right from wrong.

You made the statement ""but without faith one can never learn."

This is a LIE. It is calling black white. You do not understand what faith is.

A great many Christians have been told they should just accept the Bible’s authority; that they must have faith. Yet faith, in the religious sense, is the belief in something for which there’s no good evidence. It’s just a nice word for wishful thinking, bias, or superstition, has no intellectual merit, and is no substitute for honest enquiry. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp4WUFXvCFQ ). To learn, we must talk about facts and opinions, not faith.

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19-05-2013, 09:57 PM (This post was last modified: 20-05-2013 08:42 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(17-05-2013 01:18 PM)childeye Wrote:  Whoa take it easy. I'm not lying. Let us remember that the topic of Hell is a moral topic. It is about right and wrong regarding how we treat our fellow man. If you do not believe (have faith) that their exists a right or a wrong moral direction than you cannot possibly learn right from wrong.

Wrong-o, BabyChildish.
Morality does not come from the god(s). The topic is "eternal damnation by hell-fire". That means 1 to a googleplex years from now, you actually think some people will STILL be tortured for something they did millions, and billions and billion of billions of years ago. Nice deity ya got there, dude.
People do not need to be tortured to be good.
What a complete non sequitur. You did really have to do a contortion to cook up that one.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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19-05-2013, 09:58 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
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19-05-2013, 10:07 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(19-05-2013 09:58 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Good question. God does not cause the suffering keeping true to the term, it is a product of vanity, taking what is good that has been made by God for granted, as in usurping that which is godliness.

You tell THAT to the 6 year old pushing his IV pole down the hall, with terminal cancer. What a joke.

God is NEVER called "love" or a "moral absolute" even once in the Old Testament. Yahweh was one of many gods from the Babylonian pantheon, which the Hebrew picked for themselves, as he was to help them fight battles. THAT is not your sentimental drivel.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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20-05-2013, 04:06 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
First, if you will forgive my honesty, I find the level of disdain and contempt towards believers in this thread to be shocking. May I inquire as to what, besides the obvious psychological benefits created by teasing and assumed superiority, inspires such contempt?

Second, I find it equally incredible that avowed atheists would doubt the existence of something similar to the Christian hell. Unless I understand the current research incorrectly, most modern physicists believe that the total matter in the universe, when combined with the continued expansion of the universe due to the Big Bang, is sufficient to overcome gravity and thus will ultimately result in an ever expanding universe where entropy must increase until universal equilibrium is achieved. In such a universe, all life is extinguished (and, in fact, impossible past a certain point). There is no light, heat, or motion. Instead, all of reality exists forever, frozen by the laws of physics.

This leaves the atheist with two options. If you believe consciousness ceases after death, then the scientific fate of the universe is the extinction of all life. This sounds an awful lot like hell by annihilation.

Alternatively, if you are an atheist who believes in persistent consciousness, then all "life" will spend eternity trapped in darkness, unable to interact with anything in any way. If we assume fire to me a metaphor for suffering, this sounds an awful lot like traditional Hell.

In summation, unless modern physics is wrong, humanity, the universe, and all life is doomed to either annihilation or eternal suffering. Hell, at least if defined as the eternal death of everything, is not only real but inevitable, and, unless one of the current or some undiscovered religion is right, we're all headed straight there.

Please forgive errors because I typed this on a mobile device
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20-05-2013, 04:14 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
Mojch, IMO I think the distinction here is that the Christian hell involves consciousness of burning for all eternity whereas if there is no afterlife, we will not be conscious of anything after our physical deaths, including any end to the universe.

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20-05-2013, 04:33 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(20-05-2013 04:06 PM)Mojch Wrote:  This leaves the atheist with two options. If you believe consciousness ceases after death, then the scientific fate of the universe is the extinction of all life. This sounds an awful lot like hell by annihilation.

Alternatively, if you are an atheist who believes in persistent consciousness, then all "life" will spend eternity trapped in darkness, unable to interact with anything in any way. If we assume fire to me a metaphor for suffering, this sounds an awful lot like traditional Hell.

You're presenting a false dilemma.

Option three (to your only two option idea). You simply die. You have no consciousness so there's nothing to perceive. It's like not being born.

Also, it's really only extinction if no one else is born. No need for a place to go if you don't exist.

For the record, we're only rude to those people who go on post after post simply repeating their same ideas. It's call a circular argument and its frowned upon by most people. I'm quite sure theist wouldn't tolerate an atheist coming around a religious forum and simply repeating "there is no god" and offering little else by means of discussion. In other words it serves little purpose save to annoy. Much like a fly buzzing about.

Finally, Kingschosen is a theist on this forum and a moderator.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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20-05-2013, 04:57 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
What Mom said. We get annoyed when people come to the board on a mission to try to convert us, but offer no logic and tell us we are bad/immoral/hellhound etc. KC does not try to convert as he is Calvinistic and therefore believes god didn't mean to save everyone. He of course hosts the Ask A Theist thread which you have no doubt seen.

I don't go to theist boards at all since my life is replete with Southern Baptists, pentecostals, and the like, and so i have enough of that line of thinking. I see this board as a place I can be more myself and not have to be in the closet with atheism. So I guess I get a bit crabby when I come here to an atheist board and see the same tired you-just-gotta-have-faith arguments and other tired ones we've all heard numerous times as if they are new to us. And Momsurroundedbyboys hit the circular reasoning nail on the head. It gets old, and I try to be polite, but it's difficult sometimes.

A good read along those lines is Why Are You Atheists So Angry? by Greta Christina.

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20-05-2013, 06:37 PM (This post was last modified: 20-05-2013 09:29 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(20-05-2013 04:06 PM)Mojch Wrote:  First, if you will forgive my honesty, I find the level of disdain and contempt towards believers in this thread to be shocking. May I inquire as to what, besides the obvious psychological benefits created by teasing and assumed superiority, inspires such contempt?

Second, I find it equally incredible that avowed atheists would doubt the existence of something similar to the Christian hell. Unless I understand the current research incorrectly, most modern physicists believe that the total matter in the universe, when combined with the continued expansion of the universe due to the Big Bang, is sufficient to overcome gravity and thus will ultimately result in an ever expanding universe where entropy must increase until universal equilibrium is achieved. In such a universe, all life is extinguished (and, in fact, impossible past a certain point). There is no light, heat, or motion. Instead, all of reality exists forever, frozen by the laws of physics.

This leaves the atheist with two options. If you believe consciousness ceases after death, then the scientific fate of the universe is the extinction of all life. This sounds an awful lot like hell by annihilation.

Alternatively, if you are an atheist who believes in persistent consciousness, then all "life" will spend eternity trapped in darkness, unable to interact with anything in any way. If we assume fire to me a metaphor for suffering, this sounds an awful lot like traditional Hell.

In summation, unless modern physics is wrong, humanity, the universe, and all life is doomed to either annihilation or eternal suffering. Hell, at least if defined as the eternal death of everything, is not only real but inevitable, and, unless one of the current or some undiscovered religion is right, we're all headed straight there.

Please forgive errors because I typed this on a mobile device

The is not a shred of evidence for "Christian hell" and in fact it's cultural development can be tracked. "Hell by annihilation" is nothing. No one will be around to be "annihilated" or experience it. Point dismissed.
I know of no atheist who believes in "persistent consciousness", so your second point is also meaningless. Sorry. Everything about "hell" is based on cultural fallacies and complete ignorance of ancient Near Eastern texts. THAT is deserving of contempt. Also the theists in this thread have a "history" here. Maybe instead of jumping the gun, and making an uninformed judgement, it might behoove you to look at some of the other stuff they've posted, before you start criticizing on your first day here. There are people here who have advanced education in all manner of religious topics, in in all probability know more about your cults and their origins than you do.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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