Hell In The Old Testament
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15-05-2013, 04:37 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(15-05-2013 03:51 PM)childeye Wrote:  Isaiah 66:22-24
New International Version (NIV)
22 “As the new heavens and the new earth(A) that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure.(B) 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath© to another, all mankind will come and bow down(D) before me,” says the Lord.
24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this passage from Isaiah is about hell. Why do you believe that God didn't feel it was necessary to tell anyone that there was a hell until several thousand years after mankind had been on the planet? And more importantly, why bother to tell anyone in the Old Testament at all?

I assume that you, like most Christians, heard about hell before making your decision to become a Christian... you chose to avoid hell because it sounded like a terrible place. Wouldn't this also be as important a deterrent for people back then? Probably not, because they didn't have a choice -- jews went to heaven and gentiles went to hell, so it was just a genetic lottery that decided your afterlife.

I know this sounds like I'm contradicting myself, but what I'm actually pointing out is that there is no right answer here. If you believe that there was a good reason for such a passage in Isaiah, then it was too late to be useful. If you think that there wasn't a good reason for it to be in Isaiah, then one would ask why it was there at all.

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15-05-2013, 04:38 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
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15-05-2013, 04:46 PM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2013 08:50 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
This stupid game of dueling quotes is for idiots.
1. Every scholar knows that in Hebrew culture, "immortality" was achieved through his (MALE) offspring. His "descendants" WERE his immortality. The family. Sheol was not a place of endless torture. There is not a shred of evidence for it after death.
2. "Hell" (endless fire) presumes the dimensions of space-time, chemical combustion, and fuel in a spiritual, timeless, non-physical, environment. It's completely ludicrous, and childish.

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15-05-2013, 05:11 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(15-05-2013 04:46 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  This stupid game of dueling quotes is for idiots.
1. Every scholar knows that in Hebrew culture, "immortality" was achieved through his (MALE) offspring. His "descendants" WERE his immortality. The family. Sheol was not a place of endless torture. There is not a shred of evidence for it after death.
2. "Hell" (endless fire) presumes the dimensions of space-time, chemical combustion, and fuel in a spiritual environment. It's completely ludicrous, and childish.

But Buddy what about the ongoing reparation inducing fear of the next bout.
Sort of like those poor Muslim virgins who keep re growing hymens to satiate the blood lust of the "martyrs":hobo:
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15-05-2013, 06:01 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(15-05-2013 09:15 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  The concept of eternal torture is medieval. The concept of eternal Hell is biblical, in both testaments. I understand that modern Judaism in most sects rejects Hell, they also often reject Heaven and have concepts of soul sleep. Both Heaven and Hell are in both testaments.

PJ, so what do you see hell as? Just eternal separation from God? What specific Bible verses or other sources do you base your conclusion on?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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15-05-2013, 06:17 PM (This post was last modified: 15-05-2013 06:41 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(15-05-2013 04:46 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  This stupid game of dueling quotes is for idiots.
1. Every scholar knows that in Hebrew culture, "immortality" was achieved through his (MALE) offspring. His "descendants" WERE his immortality. The family. Sheol was not a place of endless torture. There is not a shred of evidence for it after death.
2. "Hell" (endless fire) presumes the dimensions of space-time, chemical combustion, and fuel in a spiritual environment. It's completely ludicrous, and childish.

Augustine, a "philosophical genius of the first order" (according to the Catholic Encyclopedia) attempted to explain how people could survive fire in hell without being consumed, and wrote two chapters in "City of God," on the topic, the first entitled
“Whether it is Possible for Bodies to last Forever in Burning Fire,” and the second
“Examples from Nature Proving That Bodies May Remain Unconsumed and Alive in Fire.”

So there! Hell does exist, cos Augustine said so.
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15-05-2013, 06:22 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(15-05-2013 04:35 PM)TheLastEnemy Wrote:  
(15-05-2013 03:51 PM)childeye Wrote:  No really, this is it. Of course there are dead bodies. Please note Isaiah 66:22-23 is about after the tribulation period.

Isaiah 66:22-24
New International Version (NIV)
22 “As the new heavens and the new earth(A) that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure.(B) 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath© to another, all mankind will come and bow down(D) before me,” says the Lord.
24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

Matthew 25:41
New International Version (NIV)
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Mark 9:48
New International Version (NIV)
48 where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’

Revelation 20:10
New International Version (NIV)
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


But there is nothing there about conscious, eternal torture, simply dead bodies.

The other 3 are irrelevant because they are from the NT.
The scripture describes torment not torture. This is spiritual language. I'm sure you have to think spiritually to understand it. To me it is imagery meaning all that is prideful and lifts itself up against God which is Love, will be brought down, and God keeps this knowledge available forever as spiritual renewal in the eternal kingdom. For all we know, this lake of fire may be a time loop where all the events that happened in time are relived over and over again in some manner. It says once a month they will go out and look upon it for the sake of remembering what to loathe. There are many referances to this in the Old Testament but this is the best one.
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15-05-2013, 06:26 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
Huh? Or as we say down South, do what??

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15-05-2013, 06:27 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(15-05-2013 06:17 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(15-05-2013 04:46 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  This stupid game of dueling quotes is for idiots.
1. Every scholar knows that in Hebrew culture, "immortality" was achieved through his (MALE) offspring. His "descendants" WERE his immortality. The family. Sheol was not a place of endless torture. There is not a shred of evidence for it after death.
2. "Hell" (endless fire) presumes the dimensions of space-time, chemical combustion, and fuel in a spiritual environment. It's completely ludicrous, and childish.

Augustine, a "philosophical genius of the first order" (according to the Catholic Encyclopedia) attempted to explain how people could survive fire in hell without being consumed, and wrote two chapters in City of God, on the topic, the first entitled
“Whether it is Possible for Bodies to last Forever in Burning Fire,” and the second
“Examples from Nature Proving That Bodies May Remain Unconsumed and Alive in Fire.”

So there! Hell does exist, cos Augustine said so.
I'm not familiar with Augustine but I do know that the fire spoken of is not like the fire we know. God's fire is a purifying fire.
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15-05-2013, 06:27 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(15-05-2013 06:22 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(15-05-2013 04:35 PM)TheLastEnemy Wrote:  But there is nothing there about conscious, eternal torture, simply dead bodies.

The other 3 are irrelevant because they are from the NT.
The scripture describes torment not torture. This is spiritual language. I'm sure you have to think spiritually to understand it. To me it is imagery meaning all that is prideful and lifts itself up against God which is Love, will be brought down, and God keeps this knowledge available forever as spiritual renewal in the eternal kingdom. For all we know, this lake of fire may be a time loop where all the events that happened in time are relived over and over again in some manner. It says once a month they will go out and look upon it for the sake of remembering what to loathe. There are many referances to this in the Old Testament but this is the best one.


But they're just dead bodies, not experiencing anything. Just Dead.Unconscious.Unfeeling.Corpses.
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