Hell In The Old Testament
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15-05-2013, 07:59 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(15-05-2013 06:17 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(15-05-2013 04:46 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  This stupid game of dueling quotes is for idiots.
1. Every scholar knows that in Hebrew culture, "immortality" was achieved through his (MALE) offspring. His "descendants" WERE his immortality. The family. Sheol was not a place of endless torture. There is not a shred of evidence for it after death.
2. "Hell" (endless fire) presumes the dimensions of space-time, chemical combustion, and fuel in a spiritual environment. It's completely ludicrous, and childish.

Augustine, a "philosophical genius of the first order" (according to the Catholic Encyclopedia) attempted to explain how people could survive fire in hell without being consumed, and wrote two chapters in "City of God," on the topic, the first entitled
“Whether it is Possible for Bodies to last Forever in Burning Fire,” and the second
“Examples from Nature Proving That Bodies May Remain Unconsumed and Alive in Fire.”

So there! Hell does exist, cos Augustine said so.

Oh my. I'll have to get my copy out, and have a good laugh. The last time I was reading Aquinas in a library, I starting laughing so loud they "shushed" me.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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15-05-2013, 08:06 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
God, apparently, needs humans to speak for Him and reveal bits of information over a period of centuries. If you were born before the time of Christ, then...tough luck. Does that help clear things up? Wink


Seriously, I think the Romans had a plan to unite people, under God (sound familiar?), to conquer the world. If the fear of hell didn't keep them in line, the fear of execution by crucifixion or fire would. Creating a new religion and USING FORCE to convert others has been very effective in the past millennium.
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15-05-2013, 08:06 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(15-05-2013 07:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(15-05-2013 06:27 PM)childeye Wrote:  I'm not familiar with Augustine but I do know that the fire spoken of is not like the fire we know. God's fire is a purifying fire.

Then why call it "fire" ? Call it something else. Dodgy
The English language actually means what it says to some people.
If you're talking in riddles, and mumbo-jumbo, then say so.
No, I'm saying the scriptures are encoded in spiritual imagery using metaphor.
Look at parables.
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15-05-2013, 08:24 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
The encoding and deciphering of the imagery are what started many of us on the path to nonbelief in the first place.... (Skipping back to Docskeptic's class now)

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15-05-2013, 08:29 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(15-05-2013 08:06 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(15-05-2013 07:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Then why call it "fire" ? Call it something else. Dodgy
The English language actually means what it says to some people.
If you're talking in riddles, and mumbo-jumbo, then say so.
No, I'm saying the scriptures are encoded in spiritual imagery using metaphor.
Look at parables.

Actually I agree with that. (I don't buy the fire thing. Sheol did not have a fire, and was the place where "shades" resided. Both the righteous, and the non. When the Witch of Endor conjured the shade of Samuel for Saul, only she could see the shade. It confirms the concept. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol ).

However, modern American literalist fundies are loathe to admit that many and various literary forms were used. Metaphor, and allegory were used a lot. Not many are willing to admit it. I congratulate you on that.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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15-05-2013, 08:29 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(15-05-2013 07:18 PM)TheLastEnemy Wrote:  
(15-05-2013 06:55 PM)childeye Wrote:  It is spiritual language. I believe it is a snapshot in time that is meant to be taken as a culmination of the purpose of a flesh existence that is being displayed here.

But you admit there is no indication of an eternal torment in hell?
Scripture speaks of torment. The "eternal" word is tricky. It may not mean eternal at all or in a way we misinterpret. It could be just a lesser existence. Or as I said just a replay of our flesh existence.
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15-05-2013, 08:31 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
If you don't like what the bible says transform it into a metaphor, allegory, parable or simile.

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15-05-2013, 08:52 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(15-05-2013 06:27 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(15-05-2013 06:17 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Augustine, a "philosophical genius of the first order" (according to the Catholic Encyclopedia) attempted to explain how people could survive fire in hell without being consumed, and wrote two chapters in City of God, on the topic, the first entitled
“Whether it is Possible for Bodies to last Forever in Burning Fire,” and the second
“Examples from Nature Proving That Bodies May Remain Unconsumed and Alive in Fire.”

So there! Hell does exist, cos Augustine said so.
I'm not familiar with Augustine but I do know that the fire spoken of is not like the fire we know. God's fire is a purifying fire.

"I'm not familiar with Augustine"

Gosh! Who....exactly....are....you....familiar....with?

Which of the church fathers have you read?

Which modern historian have you read?

Have you...in fact....ever read an historical work?
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15-05-2013, 08:57 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
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15-05-2013, 08:57 PM
RE: Hell In The Old Testament
(15-05-2013 08:52 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(15-05-2013 06:27 PM)childeye Wrote:  I'm not familiar with Augustine but I do know that the fire spoken of is not like the fire we know. God's fire is a purifying fire.

"I'm not familiar with Augustine"

Gosh! Who....exactly....are....you....familiar....with?

Which of the church fathers have you read?

Which modern historian have you read?

Have you...in fact....ever read an historical work?

Does David Barton count?

http://christian-libertarian.org/2012/08...scredited/

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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