Hellfire is real, except it's not
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11-11-2016, 04:16 PM
Hellfire is real, except it's not
So on YouTube, with a special thanks to you guys for pointing some of them out, I've been watching a lot of videos explaining why the fire in hell or any sort of suffering after death is simply impossible. Naturally in the comments, the more hell-loving and less respectful theists are doing all sorts of mental gymnastics and snuggling up with cognitive dissonance to try and break down the wonderful logic used. I remember one even saying that this was a very logical argument he was making.

The argument essentially boiled down to this:

"Suuure, fire in the physical world works like this. But because hell is a different realm entirely, couldn't it work through different laws? Hobo A fire with nothing like what happened in this video. A different fire. A speshul fire, because alternate realm."

( The logical theist neglected to mention that this was essentially magic, just as was mentioned in the very video he was commenting on. Just because you refer to them as "different laws" or say the fire can operate without anything physical just means you're saying "magic" but with word salad. Facepalm )

Initially the argument actually scared me at first, due to remnants of indoctrination, but a little bit of thinking always helps.

There were two big problems I noticed with the argument right off the bat, feel free to add more:

1.) Using this logic, literally anything can happen to you in the afterlife that cannot be detected by scientific means because it's in an alternate realm. I can assert that you'll be tickled by unicorns or strangled by Superman's cape in the next life, because these material things will exist under different laws in a different universe, so it can still happen. I can assert anything I want and it will be a perfectly valid thesis.

2.) If God did decide to make an eternal fire that burns without the need for anything we find fire needs to exist here... why did he make fire here with the complex needs it has in the first place? If he can make it burn without all that, it's pointless. Facepalm I get the whole all-powerful thing, but geez, that's a fickle argument at best.
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11-11-2016, 04:23 PM
RE: Hellfire is real, except it's not
No need for such detailed answers - there is no evidence for existence of hell or god and this close "discussion".

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11-11-2016, 04:31 PM
RE: Hellfire is real, except it's not
They might as well argue that things you read in Harry Potter are real 'cause magic as that is essentially what they are doing with The Bible. The Bible is just another book on the shelf, it's not magic. The only power it has is the power people give it.

*Also, even if it's a special fire in a magical realm Hobo, you would have to have a body in order to be tortured for eternity. The soul exists outside the body when you die. The soul is just an energy force according to Christian mythology, as such it has no pain receptors. No pain receptors equals no torture equals hell is a myth.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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11-11-2016, 06:49 PM
RE: Hellfire is real, except it's not
(11-11-2016 04:16 PM)Diddlyboop Wrote:  1.) Using this logic, literally anything can happen to you in the afterlife that cannot be detected by scientific means because it's in an alternate realm. I can assert that you'll be tickled by unicorns or strangled by Superman's cape in the next life, because these material things will exist under different laws in a different universe, so it can still happen. I can assert anything I want and it will be a perfectly valid thesis.

For the theists I can't reason with, which is a lot of them, I have no problem saying that spiritually I'm all powerful right now and nothing, including their god can do anything to me.

Alternatively, their god doesn't exist because I ate it for breakfast like a scrambled egg, with hell on the side. I like my gods spicy and hot.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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11-11-2016, 07:15 PM
RE: Hellfire is real, except it's not
Of course any argument about God will boil down to magic, even the creation of man from dust is all magical. You can't create a life from fucking dust and that's obvious but God can because he's a wizard.

I'm ok with playing their little game, I've had hours long arguments about fantasy novels and movies, their religion is same to me and even more fun to pick apart.

So for one I've been told you get a new body in heaven and it's awesome and you can look any way you want so apparently there are just hundreds of Beyonces walking around but I guess the same goes for Hell. Not only is your new body impervious to destruction it can also feel, so you feel pain...all the fucking time..and you're burning and your skin stays the same.

Of course the only way for that to make any kind of sense is if it's magical fire, also the human mind can get used to any stimulus, even pain and after so many hundreds of years it would start to feel like nothing at all or even pleasurable so the flames can't stay constant, they have to get hotter and hotter and more and more painful for fucking ever, billions and billions of years of non stop pain...he's truly a loving God, a magical psychopathic torturer but I guess loving...in his own fucked up way.

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12-11-2016, 06:33 AM
RE: Hellfire is real, except it's not
(11-11-2016 04:16 PM)Diddlyboop Wrote:  So on YouTube, with a special thanks to you guys for pointing some of them out, I've been watching a lot of videos explaining why the fire in hell or any sort of suffering after death is simply impossible. Naturally in the comments, the more hell-loving and less respectful theists are doing all sorts of mental gymnastics and snuggling up with cognitive dissonance to try and break down the wonderful logic used. I remember one even saying that this was a very logical argument he was making.

The argument essentially boiled down to this:

"Suuure, fire in the physical world works like this. But because hell is a different realm entirely, couldn't it work through different laws? Hobo A fire with nothing like what happened in this video. A different fire. A speshul fire, because alternate realm."

( The logical theist neglected to mention that this was essentially magic, just as was mentioned in the very video he was commenting on. Just because you refer to them as "different laws" or say the fire can operate without anything physical just means you're saying "magic" but with word salad. Facepalm )

Initially the argument actually scared me at first, due to remnants of indoctrination, but a little bit of thinking always helps.

There were two big problems I noticed with the argument right off the bat, feel free to add more:

1.) Using this logic, literally anything can happen to you in the afterlife that cannot be detected by scientific means because it's in an alternate realm. I can assert that you'll be tickled by unicorns or strangled by Superman's cape in the next life, because these material things will exist under different laws in a different universe, so it can still happen. I can assert anything I want and it will be a perfectly valid thesis.

2.) If God did decide to make an eternal fire that burns without the need for anything we find fire needs to exist here... why did he make fire here with the complex needs it has in the first place? If he can make it burn without all that, it's pointless. Facepalm I get the whole all-powerful thing, but geez, that's a fickle argument at best.

I would think the theological problems this creates would be a problem for a Christian, but they are generally unfazed or just don't think about it. This god would have to sustain the fire as well as reconstituting the body constantly, nerve endings etc. to sustain the eternal torture.

Why would a deity do this? It makes no sense in terms of energy expenditure, the movie Dune had the concept of a pain amplifier, it's much less energy intense than the nutty burning/reconstitution method. Laugh out load

But a deity that expends that much effort eternally to sustain torture- how can you come to any other conclusion that this deity wants to torture people? It would be intimately tied to the functioning of hell to sustain it with such energy.

And if an all-powerful deity wants to torture you, praying to it isn't going to stop it.

If it's willing to expend so much energy for the sustenance of torture, it would have no qualms about lying to you about how to avoid the torture. In fact, the after-life torture would be that much better, it fooled you for your entire life on top of the eternal torture it's giving you.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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12-11-2016, 08:21 AM (This post was last modified: 12-11-2016 08:38 AM by jennybee.)
RE: Hellfire is real, except it's not
(12-11-2016 06:33 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(11-11-2016 04:16 PM)Diddlyboop Wrote:  So on YouTube, with a special thanks to you guys for pointing some of them out, I've been watching a lot of videos explaining why the fire in hell or any sort of suffering after death is simply impossible. Naturally in the comments, the more hell-loving and less respectful theists are doing all sorts of mental gymnastics and snuggling up with cognitive dissonance to try and break down the wonderful logic used. I remember one even saying that this was a very logical argument he was making.

The argument essentially boiled down to this:

"Suuure, fire in the physical world works like this. But because hell is a different realm entirely, couldn't it work through different laws? Hobo A fire with nothing like what happened in this video. A different fire. A speshul fire, because alternate realm."

( The logical theist neglected to mention that this was essentially magic, just as was mentioned in the very video he was commenting on. Just because you refer to them as "different laws" or say the fire can operate without anything physical just means you're saying "magic" but with word salad. Facepalm )

Initially the argument actually scared me at first, due to remnants of indoctrination, but a little bit of thinking always helps.

There were two big problems I noticed with the argument right off the bat, feel free to add more:

1.) Using this logic, literally anything can happen to you in the afterlife that cannot be detected by scientific means because it's in an alternate realm. I can assert that you'll be tickled by unicorns or strangled by Superman's cape in the next life, because these material things will exist under different laws in a different universe, so it can still happen. I can assert anything I want and it will be a perfectly valid thesis.

2.) If God did decide to make an eternal fire that burns without the need for anything we find fire needs to exist here... why did he make fire here with the complex needs it has in the first place? If he can make it burn without all that, it's pointless. Facepalm I get the whole all-powerful thing, but geez, that's a fickle argument at best.

I would think the theological problems this creates would be a problem for a Christian, but they are generally unfazed or just don't think about it. This god would have to sustain the fire as well as reconstituting the body constantly, nerve endings etc. to sustain the eternal torture.

Why would a deity do this? It makes no sense in terms of energy expenditure, the movie Dune had the concept of a pain amplifier, it's much less energy intense than the nutty burning/reconstitution method. Laugh out load

But a deity that expends that much effort eternally to sustain torture- how can you come to any other conclusion that this deity wants to torture people? It would be intimately tied to the functioning of hell to sustain it with such energy.

And if an all-powerful deity wants to torture you, praying to it isn't going to stop it.

If it's willing to expend so much energy for the sustenance of torture, it would have no qualms about lying to you about how to avoid the torture. In fact, the after-life torture would be that much better, it fooled you for your entire life on top of the eternal torture it's giving you.

Good points!

Additionally DB, think about the mythology of hell and the absurdity of it. There is a magical genie who lives in the clouds who created a place in the underworld that is ruled over by a red horned monster who tortures people the sky genie doesn't like in his fiery lair. See how nutty this sounds?

Also, the hell in the Old Testament is way different than the hell in the New Testament, which should show you that myth and stories changed over time.





So why did this happen, why is the OT version of hell different from NT version of hell?

The Christian hell is a concept stemming from Zoroastrianism (another religion from Persia). It was a Zoroastrian belief first. The Christians then implemented the Zoroastrian idea of hell (as a bad place) into their religion. Many nearby cultures did this with other religions. They would take beliefs from one group of people and then implement them into their own ideas of things. This was done especially when they were conquered by another group of people with more "successful" gods. Here at around the 2:25 through 8:15 mark, Richard Carrier discusses how Zoroastrian beliefs were adopted into Judeo-Christianity.




"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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12-11-2016, 06:58 PM
RE: Hellfire is real, except it's not
(12-11-2016 08:21 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(12-11-2016 06:33 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I would think the theological problems this creates would be a problem for a Christian, but they are generally unfazed or just don't think about it. This god would have to sustain the fire as well as reconstituting the body constantly, nerve endings etc. to sustain the eternal torture.

Why would a deity do this? It makes no sense in terms of energy expenditure, the movie Dune had the concept of a pain amplifier, it's much less energy intense than the nutty burning/reconstitution method. Laugh out load

But a deity that expends that much effort eternally to sustain torture- how can you come to any other conclusion that this deity wants to torture people? It would be intimately tied to the functioning of hell to sustain it with such energy.

And if an all-powerful deity wants to torture you, praying to it isn't going to stop it.

If it's willing to expend so much energy for the sustenance of torture, it would have no qualms about lying to you about how to avoid the torture. In fact, the after-life torture would be that much better, it fooled you for your entire life on top of the eternal torture it's giving you.

Good points!

Additionally DB, think about the mythology of hell and the absurdity of it. There is a magical genie who lives in the clouds who created a place in the underworld that is ruled over by a red horned monster who tortures people the sky genie doesn't like in his fiery lair. See how nutty this sounds?

Also, the hell in the Old Testament is way different than the hell in the New Testament, which should show you that myth and stories changed over time.





So why did this happen, why is the OT version of hell different from NT version of hell?

The Christian hell is a concept stemming from Zoroastrianism (another religion from Persia). It was a Zoroastrian belief first. The Christians then implemented the Zoroastrian idea of hell (as a bad place) into their religion. Many nearby cultures did this with other religions. They would take beliefs from one group of people and then implement them into their own ideas of things. This was done especially when they were conquered by another group of people with more "successful" gods. Here at around the 2:25 through 8:15 mark, Richard Carrier discusses how Zoroastrian beliefs were adopted into Judeo-Christianity.




It's really weird how some Christians will do backflips to explain how the fire will work and torture you forever when they apparently haven't bothered to do a five-second search that will reveal all the mistranslations and influences that went into the belief in such a place. No

Even though hell's still one of the things bugging me, there's so much disproving its existence (including the history of it in the book it came from) that now it's almost kinda funny to me. Rolleyes
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