Hello, I'm not sure what I am
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21-04-2014, 02:01 PM
RE: Hello, I'm not sure what I am
(21-04-2014 01:14 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  
(21-04-2014 12:49 PM)wazzel Wrote:  Study more about the catholic traditoins and why you are supposed to believe in them. Actually getting to know all that should be more than enough to deconvert anyone with half a brain willing to use it. The more I studied and learned the further away I moved. One day I relized just how far I had moved and that was about it.

Yes, another ex-catholic here

I've already told a number of my family members that I cannot accept any private revelation like Lourdes, Fatima, the shroud of Turin and stories about the preserved corpses of the saints from the middle ages .

I have gone round and round with those topics and things like saint hood, indulgences, etc with friends and family. I have never gotten a "good" answer.
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21-04-2014, 02:10 PM
RE: Hello, I'm not sure what I am
Welcome to the forum, theres plenty of help in here for you, and its all sincere...no suger coated BS. I hope you find your path in here. Thumbsup

If bullshit were music some people would be a brass band.
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21-04-2014, 02:39 PM
RE: Hello, I'm not sure what I am
BURN THE BELI.... ejem... I mean HI! sup man, welcome Angel

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21-04-2014, 03:33 PM
RE: Hello, I'm not sure what I am
(21-04-2014 11:28 AM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Currently I'm a practicing Roman Catholic, but I feel that I am "this close" to taking the next step to no longer believing. I plan on doing a lot of reading on this site and to chime in on topics. It seems like the more you dig, the more unanswered questions you find.

If you want to know more about me, feel free to ask and I'll answer as best as I can without giving away my identity. I look forward to meeting you as time goes on.

Crawl, walk, run. Congrats on having the intelligence to realize that perhaps it is all an elaborate fabrication, which it is, and seeking knowledge to ascertain that. I wish you the best on your journey. Start with the podcasts, i could recommend a plethora of good books, let me know. Thumbsup

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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21-04-2014, 04:08 PM
RE: Hello, I'm not sure what I am
It is never good to support a paedophile ring.

It is never good to support an organization that ran the Vatican rat line. You know, which helped Nazis escape to South America.

It is never good to support an organization that helped spread AIDS in Africa.

It is never good to support an organization that sponsored assassination and political interference in Europe over centuries.

I could go on and on.....

Anyway, hello. Smile

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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21-04-2014, 04:26 PM
RE: Hello, I'm not sure what I am
Thanks again for taking the time to say hello. I've been reading a little here and there on the forum. I must say that you can see a lot more intelligence on this forum than you typically find on apologetics forums - especially if you wander over into fundie land...

One observation that I think is fair is that theists assume that atheists have to "believe in something", and that atheism is a religion unto itself. From my research so far, it seems that theists are the ones that fight tooth and nail about beliefs while an atheist uses reason, logic and facts to guide him/her. If a "god", "goddess" or some type of super being made it's presence known to all mankind, and this being is NOT God in the judeo-christian sense, an atheist would become a "believer" while theists would probably go thru gyrations to rationalize why it isn't real if it contradicts what they know of God.

Another thing that makes it hard to maintain my belief is the notion of "The God of the gaps". As more and more of those gaps are filled in, it makes it harder to believe in what you were taught about religion growing up.

Sorry if I'm rambling. I just have a lot to think about. It's scary and exciting at the same time. I've started with fact checking the bible as my path down this road. As a member of the RCC, I've already had the belief that much of the bible was to be interpreted as allegory. Really, to maintain your faith you would have to. The Church has believed since the era of the church fathers around the time of Augustine. IMHO, being RCC is like handling a 2 edged sword. On the one hand, RCC members (I'd also say Anglicans, Lutherans and other early reformation denominations) tend to use more reason than your typical fundies/evangelicals - which puts us further down the path of being a skeptic. However, the flip side appears that because of these built in "buffers", it's harder to convince people like us to give up our faith. I believe in evolution, the Big Bang and all the science that Creationists abhor. Couple that with thinking of the bible as a book that's infallible on matters of salvation only, it can give someone firmer ground to be a believer.

Is that good enough for me? If it was, I wouldn't be here. The problem in my mind is that the more we learn about our history and progress in science, the greater the amount of the bible that needs to be pushed into the allegory category. It seems to me at some point, the fudge factor becomes too large to ignore and you MUST take a breather and recheck your hypothesis.

I know you can never prove the existence of God, and it's a matter of faith. But to have faith, there must be some kernel of reason/logic to build off of. So I come back to the bible. The greater the errors are, the less logical that foundation appears.
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21-04-2014, 04:36 PM
RE: Hello, I'm not sure what I am
Ex-catholic here.

Have you read the bible cover to cover?

That's what made an unbeliever out of me.. reading the entire bible. That's all it took, no additional info needed.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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21-04-2014, 04:45 PM
RE: Hello, I'm not sure what I am
(21-04-2014 04:36 PM)Dom Wrote:  Ex-catholic here.

Have you read the bible cover to cover?

That's what made an unbeliever out of me.. reading the entire bible. That's all it took, no additional info needed.

No, not cover to cover. But I've read a fair amount of it. I used to think that it was appalling to read that famous quote made during the crusade against the Cathars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_B%C3%A9ziers) where someone said "Kill them all, God will know His own". However, when you read how God commanded the Israelites to slaughter other peoples, it makes you wonder whether they "had it right" after all and my understanding of the RCC is off...
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21-04-2014, 05:06 PM
RE: Hello, I'm not sure what I am
(21-04-2014 04:26 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Thanks again for taking the time to say hello. I've been reading a little here and there on the forum. I must say that you can see a lot more intelligence on this forum than you typically find on apologetics forums - especially if you wander over into fundie land...

One observation that I think is fair is that theists assume that atheists have to "believe in something", and that atheism is a religion unto itself. From my research so far, it seems that theists are the ones that fight tooth and nail about beliefs while an atheist uses reason, logic and facts to guide him/her. If a "god", "goddess" or some type of super being made it's presence known to all mankind, and this being is NOT God in the judeo-christian sense, an atheist would become a "believer" while theists would probably go thru gyrations to rationalize why it isn't real if it contradicts what they know of God.

Another thing that makes it hard to maintain my belief is the notion of "The God of the gaps". As more and more of those gaps are filled in, it makes it harder to believe in what you were taught about religion growing up.

Sorry if I'm rambling. I just have a lot to think about. It's scary and exciting at the same time. I've started with fact checking the bible as my path down this road. As a member of the RCC, I've already had the belief that much of the bible was to be interpreted as allegory. Really, to maintain your faith you would have to. The Church has believed since the era of the church fathers around the time of Augustine. IMHO, being RCC is like handling a 2 edged sword. On the one hand, RCC members (I'd also say Anglicans, Lutherans and other early reformation denominations) tend to use more reason than your typical fundies/evangelicals - which puts us further down the path of being a skeptic. However, the flip side appears that because of these built in "buffers", it's harder to convince people like us to give up our faith. I believe in evolution, the Big Bang and all the science that Creationists abhor. Couple that with thinking of the bible as a book that's infallible on matters of salvation only, it can give someone firmer ground to be a believer.

Is that good enough for me? If it was, I wouldn't be here. The problem in my mind is that the more we learn about our history and progress in science, the greater the amount of the bible that needs to be pushed into the allegory category. It seems to me at some point, the fudge factor becomes too large to ignore and you MUST take a breather and recheck your hypothesis.

I know you can never prove the existence of God, and it's a matter of faith. But to have faith, there must be some kernel of reason/logic to build off of. So I come back to the bible. The greater the errors are, the less logical that foundation appears.

It sounds to me that you are off to a good start. Thumbsup

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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21-04-2014, 05:11 PM
RE: Hello, I'm not sure what I am
(21-04-2014 04:45 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  
(21-04-2014 04:36 PM)Dom Wrote:  Ex-catholic here.

Have you read the bible cover to cover?

That's what made an unbeliever out of me.. reading the entire bible. That's all it took, no additional info needed.

No, not cover to cover. But I've read a fair amount of it. I used to think that it was appalling to read that famous quote made during the crusade against the Cathars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_B%C3%A9ziers) where someone said "Kill them all, God will know His own". However, when you read how God commanded the Israelites to slaughter other peoples, it makes you wonder whether they "had it right" after all and my understanding of the RCC is off...

the more you research, the more you learn, the more you learn, the less you believe...my fav part is how there is no one who writes of jesus in the bible, that actually new him, all allegorical writings, the oral retellings of stories by people who didn't witness the events...not even the *gasp* gospels, not even their hero Paul, and no, sadly Paul's alleged vision on the road to damscus doesn't constitute seeing jesus. Nope, all hearsay, interpolations and a generous amount of pseudepigrapha.

welcome

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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