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20-12-2011, 01:32 PM
RE: Hello, a Freethinking Catholic has joined you.
Ok time fer sum question'n:

(You may have answered these, sorry if you have.)
(If you don't mind, please go into detail as to why you believe this... however, if you just wish to answer "yes" or "no" I will understand.)

1) Do you believe in the infallibility of the Bible?
2) Do you believe in transubstantiation?
3) Do you believe that Christ, and only Christ, is the way to the Father?
4) Do you practice common Catholic rituals such as confessions and "Hail Mary's"?
5) Who do you more closely identify with when it comes to free will? Augustine or Pelagius?
6) Do you consider Protestants heretics?
7) Do you consider the Apocrypha as supplemental to the Bible or part of the Bible?
8) Do you agree with the celibacy covenant of the clergy?
9) Do you agree with abortion?
10) Do you agree with contraception?
11) Do you think homosexuality is a sin?
12) Since you're a theistic evolutionist, how do you reconcile Genesis?
13) As far as Biblical prophecy is concerned, are you pre-trib, post-trib, pre-mil, post-mil, or a-mil?
14) Do you believe in a literal hell and a literal heaven?
15) Do you believe in a literal Satan?

Thanks!

Your crazy Calvinist brother,

KC

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20-12-2011, 03:31 PM
RE: Hello, a Freethinking Catholic has joined you.
(20-12-2011 01:14 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  
(20-12-2011 12:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-12-2011 12:43 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  
(20-12-2011 07:51 AM)Chas Wrote:  I think that "freethinking Catholic" may be a contradiction.Dodgy

I note the use of the subjunctive in your sentence, good sir, and smile. Yes it very well may be, and if it were in my case, I wouldn't be surprised. I am human after all. That seems to be the textbook case for "walking contradiction" Big Grin

My ex-wife claimed she was an Irish-Catholic. If you lined up her beliefs against those of the Catholic church, they wouldn't have agreed with her.Cool

Know what? Neither do mine, but that's okay. I don't think any Catholic, no matter how much they might say so, tows the party line 100%. But I don't think being Catholic equals following the party line. Just MO.

The Church hierarchy doesn't agree with you - and it's their club.Dodgy

I think there are full-blown Roman Catholics out there.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-12-2011, 10:30 PM
RE: Hello, a Freethinking Catholic has joined you.
(20-12-2011 03:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-12-2011 01:14 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  
(20-12-2011 12:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-12-2011 12:43 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  
(20-12-2011 07:51 AM)Chas Wrote:  I think that "freethinking Catholic" may be a contradiction.Dodgy

I note the use of the subjunctive in your sentence, good sir, and smile. Yes it very well may be, and if it were in my case, I wouldn't be surprised. I am human after all. That seems to be the textbook case for "walking contradiction" Big Grin

My ex-wife claimed she was an Irish-Catholic. If you lined up her beliefs against those of the Catholic church, they wouldn't have agreed with her.Cool

Know what? Neither do mine, but that's okay. I don't think any Catholic, no matter how much they might say so, tows the party line 100%. But I don't think being Catholic equals following the party line. Just MO.

The Church hierarchy doesn't agree with you - and it's their club.Dodgy

I think there are full-blown Roman Catholics out there.

That's the thing- I don't think the hierarchy "owns" this "club". I think if you were to go back and look at early Church history, you would be hardpressed to find a church that is organized in such a top down authoritarian manner. We used to love open debate, its a shame we don't anymore. To me, the Church is much more than just the men in funny clothes and hats, it belongs to all Catholics in a much more communal sense. So no, I don't think it's just their club. Also, I understand Catholic in a much more universal sense, and I include the Orthodox who do not accept the Pope to be Catholics. They too are a part of the Catholic Church, at least in my opinion.
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20-12-2011, 10:57 PM
RE: Hello, a Freethinking Catholic has joined you.
(20-12-2011 10:30 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  That's the thing- I don't think the hierarchy "owns" this "club". I think if you were to go back and look at early Church history, you would be hardpressed to find a church that is organized in such a top down authoritarian manner. We used to love open debate, its a shame we don't anymore. To me, the Church is much more than just the men in funny clothes and hats, it belongs to all Catholics in a much more communal sense. So no, I don't think it's just their club. Also, I understand Catholic in a much more universal sense, and I include the Orthodox who do not accept the Pope to be Catholics. They too are a part of the Catholic Church, at least in my opinion.

I am referring specifically to the Roman Catholic Church.

In very important ways it doesn't matter whether or not you think they own the club - they control the rules. And they control the wealth.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-12-2011, 11:10 PM
RE: Hello, a Freethinking Catholic has joined you.
(20-12-2011 01:32 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Ok time fer sum question'n:

(You may have answered these, sorry if you have.)
(If you don't mind, please go into detail as to why you believe this... however, if you just wish to answer "yes" or "no" I will understand.)

1) Do you believe in the infallibility of the Bible?
2) Do you believe in transubstantiation?
3) Do you believe that Christ, and only Christ, is the way to the Father?
4) Do you practice common Catholic rituals such as confessions and "Hail Mary's"?
5) Who do you more closely identify with when it comes to free will? Augustine or Pelagius?
6) Do you consider Protestants heretics?
7) Do you consider the Apocrypha as supplemental to the Bible or part of the Bible?
8) Do you agree with the celibacy covenant of the clergy?
9) Do you agree with abortion?
10) Do you agree with contraception?
11) Do you think homosexuality is a sin?
12) Since you're a theistic evolutionist, how do you reconcile Genesis?
13) As far as Biblical prophecy is concerned, are you pre-trib, post-trib, pre-mil, post-mil, or a-mil?
14) Do you believe in a literal hell and a literal heaven?
15) Do you believe in a literal Satan?

Thanks!

Your crazy Calvinist brother,

KC

1. I will take Vatican II's stance on this: when it comes to issues of salvation, yes. Everything else, no. Will it contradict itself on matters of salvation? Yes, most likely. But that's for me to deal with and figure out. Didn't say it was easy.

2. Yes, I believe the Eucharist is the body and blood but rather in spiritual form instead of physical. I guess maybe I look at post ressurection Jesus as an evolved human-spirit hybrid.

3. Yes. But I believe how he saves is up to him. I do not dispute the method, so for me perhaps faith is not the only way of being saved by Jesus, but it is a way.

4. Yes

5. Pelagius Big Grin Strictly speaking, I'm somewhere between a Thomist and a Molinist, if you know what those are.

6. I consider some major protestant dogmas, like sola scriptura, to be utterly wrong. Do I think some of the beliefs are heretical? Sure I do, won't lie. Does that means I think those who hold them are heretics and are therefore absolutely outside of God's grace and the Body of Christ? Absolutely not.

7. Part of it.

8. NO.

9 + 10. Agree with it? No, I don't think it's right to kill of your own species. Even if they are not full blown humans yet and are just fetuses, they will develop into humans if left unhindered. So I don't think it right to deny someone the potential to live. Everyone should be given a chance. That being said, I also understand that we are not at the level of medical expertise and technology whereby we can save all pregnancies. Cases still happen where the mother and the fetus will die, or the mother will die. And I don't think it right to let a mother die in childbirth, especially if she doesn't want to sacrifice her life for her child. In these cases, I believe abortion becomes necessary, but I believe everything should be done to save the pregnancy before arriving at that option. In other words, if you can avoid aborting, I think you should. If not, well that's unfortunate and horrible but also unfortunately necessary. I also don't condemn mothers who've had abortions, because I know how much pressure and stress they must have been under at the time. If anything, they have my understanding and sympathy.

I'm perfectly fine with contraception in most cases. I honestly think that the Catholic teaching on this is not as final as the hierarchs would have you believe. I can understand if a couple cannot afford to raise a child, this is a valid reason to contracept, or if they want to avoid STIs or AIDS. These seem like good moral reasons to use contraception, and I believe God to be more than understanding and rational when it comes to these cases. That being said, I do find the idea of having sex for the sole purpose of pleasure and not being open to having kids, as opposed to having it for pleasure but actually being open to letting that happen, to be both incredibly selfish and irresponsible. If you're doing the deed, you should at least be prepared to take responsibility and accept the consequences should they arrise. I think aborting a pregnancy simply because you don't want it is not only an act of murder, it also says that you refuse to take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. I find this highly irresponsible and detestible.

11. No, its perfectly fine with me.

12. Genesis is not meant to be read with science textbook beside it. People should honestly be reading it with the Babylonian/Sumerian/Egyptian creation myths in mind, because hey the tree of life and the tree of knowledge is in those too! There are quite a few similarities. Also, the Hebrew word for knowledge used in the second chapter of genesis has more connotations of knowledge gained by experience, rather than just stuff you know in your head. It might be a better interpretation to say that God is trying to protect Adam and Eve from experiencing evil. But I do not think the Garden story literally happened, nor do I think the seven days happened. It is a creation myth to explain why there is evil in the world and why the harsh near eastern environment the Hebrews lived in sucked so much. It is a story, plain and simple, but that does not mean that it doesn't contain any truth. I think everyone is born neutral, but the choices they make in their lives leads them to sin and turn away from God. Whether a Fall happened over a much more gradual time period for different groups of people, I don't know. But I do believe the death that genesis speaks of as entering the world is spiritual death, not physical. Regardless of whether everything changed by a single act, I think people still sin, and we still have and need Christ to save us.

13. amillenial all the way, baby!

14. I believe that the spiritual world as some have called it is another dimension of reality, and that heaven and hell are simply states of existence one enters into upon entering into it. So yes and no. If you remember the feast scene with the dwarves in the last narnia book, that's pretty much what I believe.

15. Do I think there was fallen angel called Lucifer who became the Devil? No. Do I think there are malevolent spirits who have a leader who is opposed to God and has been evil form the get go, and whom many call the Devil, Satan etc? Absolutely. I've had religious experiences of both sides that have lead to my beliefs.

Oh, and I like Calvinists, even though I am vehemently opposed to their theology. I have a few good friends who are Calvinists, so I think we'll get along just fine Smile
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21-12-2011, 12:08 AM
RE: Hello, a Freethinking Catholic has joined you.
I really like that king has added you to his harem. Try not to stay too long =p

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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21-12-2011, 12:41 AM
RE: Hello, a Freethinking Catholic has joined you.
(21-12-2011 12:08 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  I really like that king has added you to his harem. Try not to stay too long =p

Do you think that was KC's way of saying he's made Nagoda his bitch? Big Grin

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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21-12-2011, 12:42 AM
RE: Hello, a Freethinking Catholic has joined you.
(21-12-2011 12:41 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(21-12-2011 12:08 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  I really like that king has added you to his harem. Try not to stay too long =p

Do you think that was KC's way of saying he's made Nagoda his bitch? Big Grin

Excuse me? Bitch to a Calvinist? I think not!
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21-12-2011, 12:49 AM
RE: Hello, a Freethinking Catholic has joined you.
(21-12-2011 12:42 AM)Nagoda Wrote:  
(21-12-2011 12:41 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(21-12-2011 12:08 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  I really like that king has added you to his harem. Try not to stay too long =p

Do you think that was KC's way of saying he's made Nagoda his bitch? Big Grin

Excuse me? Bitch to a Calvinist? I think not!

True, I should have considered the chronology better. You should Inquisition KC's ass and turn him back to the true faith!

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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21-12-2011, 12:56 AM
RE: Hello, a Freethinking Catholic has joined you.
(20-12-2011 11:10 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  That being said, I do find the idea of having sex for the sole purpose of pleasure and not being open to having kids, as opposed to having it for pleasure but actually being open to letting that happen, to be both incredibly selfish and irresponsible. If you're doing the deed, you should at least be prepared to take responsibility and accept the consequences should they arrise.

So as long as you use contraceptives to avoid aids and not to avoid a pregnancy we're all set? Come on, man, sex is fun Smile And it's not such a big deal. All it is in the standard interpretation is a man sticking his sticky-out bit into a specially shaped hole in a woman... of course there are numerous fun variations, such as sticking it in the wrong hole. I fail completely to see why this should be seen as a gravely responsible act and wearing a bit of rubber is seen as selfish and irresponsible.

It's *irresponsible* not to. Kids are a big deal. If you as a catholic schoolgirl in your cute little outfit get pregnant, do you think that kid or you are gonna have a nice life? Maybe you've got a chance at a nice life, but still, one rubber and no problemo. Just a few disappointed sperm swimming around. Also lots safer from STD point of view.
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