Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
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04-05-2015, 09:05 PM
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
(04-05-2015 08:39 PM)LostLegend Wrote:  Maybe one day you'll need to remove half of your user-name.. But which half? Smile
I think that's another dilemma on my (very long) list. Big Grin
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04-05-2015, 09:23 PM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2015 07:06 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
(04-05-2015 08:57 PM)christian_atheist Wrote:  
(04-05-2015 08:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I think you're just growing out of your indoctrination phase. It's not a simple matter to see what all is involved in deconversion. There's also a lot about religious experiences that's not really "owned" by religion, (it's just where so far in your life) you happen to have found some of it. I think we get it, more than you know. You may find some value in these :



Maybe partially. For example, I've never believed that I should pray to God to get into MIT. I saw it as a degradation of prayer and an act of reducing God to a button which I can press whenever I want in order for my wishes to become reality (which is a purely mechanical/magical understanding of God-man relationship).
In my opinion, God was a person, not someone who needed to serve me and my wishes. For me, prayer was a tecnique, a way of askesis that could help me transform my personality and achieve the goal: to become Christlike. Nothing more and nothing less.

But still, I will watch it to the end. Tnx. Smile

Well, philosophically, "god is a person" makes no sense at all. Persons have personalities. That means any person cannot by definition be "infinite" (in any way), as that "personhood" is limiting to that "personality" (by definition). That's meaningless anthropomorphization. Prayer doesn't work, (that's been proven). Prayer, singing, art, meditation, the experience of wonder are explainable (neurologically) as appreciation/enjoyment/addiction to (an increase in) circulating beta-endorphins, (just like running).
http://www.wikihow.com/Get-a-Natural-Rush
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta-Endorphin
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/27/health....html?_r=0

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-05-2015, 10:08 PM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2015 10:21 PM by christian_atheist.)
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
(04-05-2015 09:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Well, philosophically, "god is a person" makes no sense at all. Persons have personalities. That means any person cannot by definition be "infinite" (in any way), as that "personhood" is limiting to that "personality" (by definition). That's meaningless anthropomorphization. Prayer doesn't work, (that's been proven). Prayer, singing, art, meditation, the experience of wonder are explainable (neurologically) as addiction to an increase in circulating beta-endorphins, (just like running).
http://www.wikihow.com/Get-a-Natural-Rush
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta-Endorphin
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/27/health....html?_r=0

I suppose you will agree that we need to use some words, even though we are completely aware that they can't fully express (hypothetical) metaphysical being. By 'person', I meant that God is someone with whom we should commune with, not trying to exploit him and use him as a tool. But still, you made a very good point which is related to apophaticism in Christian theology.

When it comes to religious experiences, the fact that we can find some neurological basis doesn't mean they're not real. Almost every kind of state of consciousness has a neurological basis, but we never take it as evidence that specific state of mind is not real. And even if you can completely reduce them to neurology (which I honestly doubt), the fact that people through meditation/contemplation get to the state of joy/happiness/bliss suggests that there's nothing wrong with it, even if people believe that there's a God. It makes people feel good, just as eating chocolate. If your faith doesn't make you want to impose your beliefs on others, go for it.
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04-05-2015, 10:15 PM
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
(04-05-2015 10:08 PM)christian_atheist Wrote:  And even if you can completely reduce them to neurology (which I honestly doubt), the fact that people through meditation/contemplation get to the state of joy/happiness/bliss suggests that there's nothing wrong with it, even if people believe that there's a God. It makes people feel good, just as eating chocolate.


People don't fly planes into skyscrapers over chocolate habits... Facepalm

Also, you've reduced belief down to justifying it based on the supposedly positive results, not whether or not it's actually true.

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04-05-2015, 10:38 PM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2015 10:52 PM by christian_atheist.)
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
(04-05-2015 10:15 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  People don't fly planes into skyscrapers over chocolate habits... Facepalm

Also, you've reduced belief down to justifying it based on the supposedly positive results, not whether or not it's actually true.

That's because spiritual experiences are much more powerful than eating chocolate. And it's not just about spiritual experiences, but about morality of specific religion/denomination. It also depends on the person (if someone is a Liberal and a Christian, his 'Jesus' would be a Liberal too).

That was just for the sake of showing that delusions are not always bad. Without some delusions and irrationality, no man could possibly stay mentally healthy (we're optimists by nature, we tend to forget bad things and remember only good, we're most of the time blind or half blind for our own mistakes but easily to judge others etc).
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04-05-2015, 10:52 PM
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
Quote:And it's not just about spiritual experiences, but about morality of specific religion/denomination.

I read something recently about that.
Basically it said: "If the only thing keeping you from being a shitty person is religion, then you're already a shitty person."
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04-05-2015, 11:00 PM
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
(04-05-2015 10:52 PM)pablo Wrote:  I read something recently about that.
Basically it said: "If the only thing keeping you from being a shitty person is religion, then you're already a shitty person."
How is that related to what I said?

What you're saying is about people being good just because they're afraid of God/hell. My point is about people doing bad because they're taught to.
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04-05-2015, 11:03 PM
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
(04-05-2015 10:38 PM)christian_atheist Wrote:  
(04-05-2015 10:15 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  People don't fly planes into skyscrapers over chocolate habits... Facepalm

Also, you've reduced belief down to justifying it based on the supposedly positive results, not whether or not it's actually true.

That's because spiritual experiences are much more powerful than eating chocolate. And it's not just about spiritual experiences, but about morality of specific religion/denomination. It also depends on the person (if someone is a Liberal and a Christian, his 'Jesus' would be a Liberal too).

That was just for the sake of showing that delusions are not always bad. Without some delusions and irrationality, no man could possibly stay mentally healthy (we're optimists by nature, we tend to forget bad things and remember only good, we're most of the time blind or half blind for our own mistakes but easily to judge others etc).


And yet, instead of striving for what is real, factual, and objective, for what is true; you're making petty excuses to embrace self-indulgent ignorance.

Fuck that.

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04-05-2015, 11:07 PM
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
(04-05-2015 11:00 PM)christian_atheist Wrote:  
(04-05-2015 10:52 PM)pablo Wrote:  I read something recently about that.
Basically it said: "If the only thing keeping you from being a shitty person is religion, then you're already a shitty person."
How is that related to what I said?

What you're saying is about people being good just because they're afraid of God/hell. My point is about people doing bad because they're taught to.

You indicated religion is the cause of morality. So people being taught to be bad only comes from outside religion?
Or is it just the religions you don't agree with?
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04-05-2015, 11:25 PM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2015 11:48 PM by christian_atheist.)
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
(04-05-2015 11:03 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  And yet, instead of striving for what is real, factual, and objective, for what is true; you're making petty excuses to embrace self-indulgent ignorance.

Fuck that.

And yet, instead of accepting that irrationality is inseparable from human beings in many different ways and that it can be good (sometimes even necessary), you're making a new claim without any argument.

To be perfectly clear, let's put it this way:

Can irrationality be bad?

Of course. If you want to make a cure and at the same time don't want to be rational, I'm sure you want become famous one day. If you want to be a scientist, you can't use hypothetico-deductive model if you're not rational. So, irrationality can be bad.

Can irrationality be good?

Of course. Everything what I mentioned earlier + art + falling in love + different states of consciousness we all value. Therefore, irrationality can be good.

And the final point: when you say that something is irrational, that doesn't say so much. Actually, it says almost nothing about whether something is good or bad. You need much better (=additional) arguments in order to show that something is bad, besides the mere fact that it is irrational.

Hope I made it clear now.
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