Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
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04-05-2015, 11:43 PM
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
(04-05-2015 11:25 PM)christian_atheist Wrote:  
(04-05-2015 11:03 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  And yet, instead of striving for what is real, factual, and objective, for what is true; you're making petty excuses to embrace self-indulgent ignorance.

Fuck that.

And yet, instead of accepting that irrationality is inseparable from human beings in many different ways and that it can be good (sometimes even necessary), you're making a new claim without any argument.

To be perfectly clear, let's put it this way:

Can irrationality be bad?

Of course. If you want to make a cure and at the same time don't want to be rational, I'm sure you want become famous one day. If you want to be a scientist, you can't use hypothetico-deductive model if you're not rational. So, irrationality can be bad.

Can irrationality be good?

Of course. Everything what I mentioned earlier + art + falling in love + different states of consciousness we all value. Therefore, irrationality can be good.

And the final point: when you say that something is irrational, that doesn't says so much. Actually, it says almost nothing about whether something is good or bad. You need much better (=additional) arguments in order to show that something is bad, besides the mere fact that it is irrational.

Hope I made it clear now.

Welcome!
I see agnosticism as a perfectly rational position.
Many religions attempt to express God in what I see as inadequate ways.
Atheists tend to see logic and science as cosmic panaceas.
An ineffable god concept needs none of this.
Is it not possible to project one's higher values hopefully and sincerely?
AS Robert Brault pts it.."Of course I doubt, I practise faith not certainty".............
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04-05-2015, 11:46 PM
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
(04-05-2015 11:07 PM)pablo Wrote:  You indicated religion is the cause of morality. So people being taught to be bad only comes from outside religion?
Or is it just the religions you don't agree with?
Right, I got it now.

If you speak about morality in terms of biological evolution (basic morality or whatever you want to call it), then we might conclude that religion is not the source of that sort of morality. Every man or almost every man can feel what is good and what is right, independently of his religious convictions or the absence of them.
But, as we both know, human morality is not so simple. There's a bunch of societal/moral norms in every society around the world that have its origin in religions.
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04-05-2015, 11:53 PM
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
Welcome Smile

(04-05-2015 11:46 PM)christian_atheist Wrote:  There's a bunch of societal/moral norms in every society around the world that have its origin in religions.

I would rather say more likely that religion incorporated existing social norms and codified them?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-05-2015, 11:58 PM
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
(04-05-2015 11:46 PM)christian_atheist Wrote:  
(04-05-2015 11:07 PM)pablo Wrote:  You indicated religion is the cause of morality. So people being taught to be bad only comes from outside religion?
Or is it just the religions you don't agree with?
Right, I got it now.

If you speak about morality in terms of biological evolution (basic morality or whatever you want to call it), then we might conclude that religion is not the source of that sort of morality. Every man or almost every man can feel what is good and what is right, independently of his religious convictions or the absence of them.
But, as we both know, human morality is not so simple. There's a bunch of societal/moral norms in every society around the world that have its origin in religions.

Do you believe that regional, religion-based societal norms are morally sound because of their origins?
Do you think it's wiser to reject immoral societal norms regardless of their origins?
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04-05-2015, 11:59 PM
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
(04-05-2015 11:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  I would rather say more likely that religion incorporated existing social norms and codified them?

Thanks. Smile

It goes for some of them, sure, but there are some purely religious norms by nature. For instance, the norm that states that you should take part into holy communion is purely religious.
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05-05-2015, 12:28 AM
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
(04-05-2015 11:59 PM)christian_atheist Wrote:  It goes for some of them, sure, but there are some purely religious norms by nature. For instance, the norm that states that you should take part into holy communion is purely religious.

Your initial contention was that these result in some kind of Value Added Morality though? I don't see how a holy communion social norm adds value to anything, other than maybe some minimal social cohesion due to doing daft things together Tongue But you can get that from orgies, and those are much more fun Smile

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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05-05-2015, 12:30 AM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2015 12:34 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
(04-05-2015 11:25 PM)christian_atheist Wrote:  
(04-05-2015 11:03 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  And yet, instead of striving for what is real, factual, and objective, for what is true; you're making petty excuses to embrace self-indulgent ignorance.

Fuck that.

And yet, instead of accepting that irrationality is inseparable from human beings in many different ways and that it can be good (sometimes even necessary), you're making a new claim without any argument.

To be perfectly clear, let's put it this way:

Can irrationality be bad?

Of course. If you want to make a cure and at the same time don't want to be rational, I'm sure you want become famous one day. If you want to be a scientist, you can't use hypothetico-deductive model if you're not rational. So, irrationality can be bad.

Can irrationality be good?

Of course. Everything what I mentioned earlier + art + falling in love + different states of consciousness we all value. Therefore, irrationality can be good.

And the final point: when you say that something is irrational, that doesn't say so much. Actually, it says almost nothing about whether something is good or bad. You need much better (=additional) arguments in order to show that something is bad, besides the mere fact that it is irrational.

Hope I made it clear now.

When you divorce yourself from reality because it makes you feel better, that still doesn't make it true. So just because someone can be less of an asshole because they believe in Jesus, doesn't mean that their delusion is good, or that Jesus was divine, or that their patently fallacious and flawed reasoning won't lead them to making other terrible decisions. My really Southern Baptist father now is generally less of an asshole than he was when he was younger and only nominally religious, but his Christian beliefs are used to justify and support his homophobia.

I do my best to be an objective critical thinker. It's not always the most comforting at times, because the universe is ultimately indifferent to my desires, but it's intellectually honest and the best way I know of to make both the most sound (i.e. rational) and moral (i.e. mitigating or alleviating harm and suffering) decisions.

For the record, I was an art major in college. Trust me, there is a whole hell of a lot more critical thought put into it than anyone not professionally trained in the field would know or care to think about. Irrationality doesn't get a pass because it can be good, any more so than pedophile priests get a pass because the Catholic Church can do charity work...

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05-05-2015, 04:25 AM
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
(04-05-2015 11:46 PM)christian_atheist Wrote:  
(04-05-2015 11:07 PM)pablo Wrote:  You indicated religion is the cause of morality. So people being taught to be bad only comes from outside religion?
Or is it just the religions you don't agree with?
Right, I got it now.

If you speak about morality in terms of biological evolution (basic morality or whatever you want to call it), then we might conclude that religion is not the source of that sort of morality. Every man or almost every man can feel what is good and what is right, independently of his religious convictions or the absence of them.
But, as we both know, human morality is not so simple. There's a bunch of societal/moral norms in every society around the world that have its origin in religions.

Nope.
Morality comes from human culture, not religions. LATER religions (such as the ones that produced the Bible) sanctioned local customs, and imported them into their religions.
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05-05-2015, 04:31 AM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2015 04:44 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
(04-05-2015 11:59 PM)christian_atheist Wrote:  
(04-05-2015 11:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  I would rather say more likely that religion incorporated existing social norms and codified them?

Thanks. Smile

It goes for some of them, sure, but there are some purely religious norms by nature. For instance, the norm that states that you should take part into holy communion is purely religious.

Not really. Where did it come from ? Greece. The celebration of the Eucharist came straight from Greece and the ingestion of a substance "turning you into the ingested thing" is not at all a religious notion. There are no "purely religious" ideas. Every one of them can be traced to something outside of religions. BTW, Jesus( if he even existed) was an observant Jew, and so were his followers. The notion that he, at a Passover meal, might have suggested to them that they actually drink blood, (an "abomination" to a Jew) is totally impossible. Later, Christians who needed to compete with Mithraism and Zoroastrian cults, added "communion" to their new cult, just like they cooked up all sorts of other things which we know would have been unthinkable to a Jew, (ie the trinity, Jesus as a god, redemption, "once-for-all" sacrifice" etc etc).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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05-05-2015, 06:03 AM
RE: Hello from a Christian Atheist :)
Welcome Christian_Atheist!
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