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12-02-2013, 04:24 PM
Help
Hello and Hi! I first thought of putting this into the help section, but because this is my first time, I put it in the introductions section. I am an ex-muslim. However, I still have fears of hell (eternal, never-ending punishment), and I am comfortable in getting rid of those fears rationally. However, this story has troubled me now for a long time, and I hope to seek your advice. This story is verbatim from my friend, and it is long, but I urge you to read it for the sake of helping me, and hopefully, even helping yourself. She almost converted to Islam, but she didn't. However, I still do not have a rational explanation for this, and I would love to hear opinions. Thank you.


"So first of all I was born in a non-practicing christian family and I
am a French speaker canadian (yes, I live in the province of Quebec). I
am 17 and I spent most of my life in the countryside, where there was
no mosque and no muslims. Actually, there were only white French
speaking people and you would only see two or three immigrants/adopted
children. It was not multicultural at all. When I was 14 I moved to
Montreal to live with the aunt of my mother and her husband, who are
practicing christians (evangelists and protestants). When I arrived to
Montreal I was surprized to see so much immigrants of all possible
ethnic and religious backgrounds, including hindus, sikhs, muslims, etc.
However I was not so much interested into religions, I was strongly
agnostic and thought that if God existed, he would do whatever he want
with me so I wasn't trying to change my destiny.

Now, how I came to know islam... it always feels strange when I talk about it because when
I was 16, I made two dreams which marked me. I received, in those
dreams, what my muslim contacts would call "signs from God" or "clear
proofs of the varacity of islam"
[Image: wacko.gif]

The
first dream was that I saw my mother (non-practicing christian) on the
ground while I was sat on a chair. My mother seemed to suffer and was
somehow being "aspirated" by the floor. She burned me with a lighter and
screamed to me "C'EST LE NUMÉRO 171 !" (English : "This is the number
171 !"). I'll come back to this dream later on.

In the second
dream, I was walking slowly and hesitantly in direction of a fire,
searching for someone without being sure who I was searching for. I saw a
guy running out of this fire, a guy whom I didn't know. The guy passed
in front of me, turned back, made a step in my direction, took my hand
and told me to follow him. I refused with hesitation, he pulled me
softly, I took off my hand from his hand. I then looked at him and I
wanted to say his name. The strange thing is that in my dream I somehow knew him, without knowing him in reality... I finally woke up before I could say his name because I realized that I didn't know it.

A few weeks after those two dreams, I was in an internet francophone website, a kind of 3D tchat. Something was telling me that I HAD TO
meet or meet back someone on that website, that this "someone" would
change my way of thinking and that this "someone" would be 14 years old
(I was 16). It was what you could call a feeling, a presentiment, a
strong and deep impression. I "knew" I would meet or meet again that
person even though I refused to admit it to myself, because it seemed
too weird...

December 2011, I met (or rather met back) that
person on that website. He was indeed 14, and I knew him by reputation
since I frequented that website for years and that he was well known for
being an annoying person, someone who would do anything to upset the
moderators, etc. Anyways, we began to talk together everyday (for me he
was not annoying [Image: rolleyes.gif]
). He began to talk to me about Islam, I asked a few questions to see
if it was any different from Christianity and he explained me the basis.
When I saw a few pictures of him, something struck me : he looked exactly like that guy in my dream who was running out of the fire ...

Days
and weeks passed by, we became closer, and he confessed to me that he
had been a sorcerer/wizard, that this practice is forbidden in Islam and
that one day when he wanted to move away from that, the first thing
that came out of his mouth was "God convert me to Islam" (he is born in a
muslim family but was not a practicing muslim). I was shocked... I
couldn't help but making links with my second dream : the guy that I
knew but didn't knew was him (and I, in fact, knew him by name and
reputation without knowing him in reality), he was in the fire because
he was a sorcerer and he ran out of it because he came to Islam, he then
took my hand to invite me to Islam... etc.

Now I come back to my
first dream. As I made searches about Islam throughout the year 2012, I
came across many, many youtube videos of converts, videos about the
quran and so on. One of those videos shown me the verse 4:171 of the
quran.

Quote
O
People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say
about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was
but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a
soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His
messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
I
cried. I remembered my dream, my christian mother screaming "c'est le
numéro 171" (this is the number 171). I noticed my mother has said four
words, followed by the number 171. 4:171. This verse was talking
directly to Christians, like my mother. This verse was telling my mother
that she'd go to hell, and in fact in my first dream it seemed like it.
She transmitted me her religion, just as in my dream she transmitted me
the fire of the lighter...

Quote
We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness?
When
I saw this verse during my research about Islam, it was too much for
me... I began to think that if I was not willing to accept any religion,
not even Islam, something was probably wrong with me. Was it the devil
tricking me? Was it because I deserved to go to hell anyway? Was it
because I was arrogant towards God? I continued my research... why
wasn't I becoming a muslim yet? Was it because I feared the reaction of
my christian family? Was it because I would have to change my name? (Not
that I thought every convert must change his/her name... but in my case
my name is actually blasphemous, and I saw that a muslim can't have a
blasphemous name. My name is Jézabel, (French version of Jezebel) and
according to some christian sites it means "Baal is the god"... quite
ironic since I was baptized Catholic [Image: afro.gif])"
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12-02-2013, 04:31 PM
RE: Help
(12-02-2013 04:24 PM)okayjustshutup Wrote:  Hello and Hi! I first thought of putting this into the help section, but because this is my first time, I put it in the introductions section. I am an ex-muslim. However, I still have fears of hell (eternal, never-ending punishment), and I am comfortable in getting rid of those fears rationally. However, this story has troubled me now for a long time, and I hope to seek your advice. This story is verbatim from my friend, and it is long, but I urge you to read it for the sake of helping me, and hopefully, even helping yourself. She almost converted to Islam, but she didn't. However, I still do not have a rational explanation for this, and I would love to hear opinions. Thank you.


"So first of all I was born in a non-practicing christian family and I
am a French speaker canadian (yes, I live in the province of Quebec). I
am 17 and I spent most of my life in the countryside, where there was
no mosque and no muslims. Actually, there were only white French
speaking people and you would only see two or three immigrants/adopted
children. It was not multicultural at all. When I was 14 I moved to
Montreal to live with the aunt of my mother and her husband, who are
practicing christians (evangelists and protestants). When I arrived to
Montreal I was surprized to see so much immigrants of all possible
ethnic and religious backgrounds, including hindus, sikhs, muslims, etc.
However I was not so much interested into religions, I was strongly
agnostic and thought that if God existed, he would do whatever he want
with me so I wasn't trying to change my destiny.

Now, how I came to know islam... it always feels strange when I talk about it because when
I was 16, I made two dreams which marked me. I received, in those
dreams, what my muslim contacts would call "signs from God" or "clear
proofs of the varacity of islam"
[Image: wacko.gif]

The
first dream was that I saw my mother (non-practicing christian) on the
ground while I was sat on a chair. My mother seemed to suffer and was
somehow being "aspirated" by the floor. She burned me with a lighter and
screamed to me "C'EST LE NUMÉRO 171 !" (English : "This is the number
171 !"). I'll come back to this dream later on.

In the second
dream, I was walking slowly and hesitantly in direction of a fire,
searching for someone without being sure who I was searching for. I saw a
guy running out of this fire, a guy whom I didn't know. The guy passed
in front of me, turned back, made a step in my direction, took my hand
and told me to follow him. I refused with hesitation, he pulled me
softly, I took off my hand from his hand. I then looked at him and I
wanted to say his name. The strange thing is that in my dream I somehow knew him, without knowing him in reality... I finally woke up before I could say his name because I realized that I didn't know it.

A few weeks after those two dreams, I was in an internet francophone website, a kind of 3D tchat. Something was telling me that I HAD TO
meet or meet back someone on that website, that this "someone" would
change my way of thinking and that this "someone" would be 14 years old
(I was 16). It was what you could call a feeling, a presentiment, a
strong and deep impression. I "knew" I would meet or meet again that
person even though I refused to admit it to myself, because it seemed
too weird...

December 2011, I met (or rather met back) that
person on that website. He was indeed 14, and I knew him by reputation
since I frequented that website for years and that he was well known for
being an annoying person, someone who would do anything to upset the
moderators, etc. Anyways, we began to talk together everyday (for me he
was not annoying [Image: rolleyes.gif]
). He began to talk to me about Islam, I asked a few questions to see
if it was any different from Christianity and he explained me the basis.
When I saw a few pictures of him, something struck me : he looked exactly like that guy in my dream who was running out of the fire ...

Days
and weeks passed by, we became closer, and he confessed to me that he
had been a sorcerer/wizard, that this practice is forbidden in Islam and
that one day when he wanted to move away from that, the first thing
that came out of his mouth was "God convert me to Islam" (he is born in a
muslim family but was not a practicing muslim). I was shocked... I
couldn't help but making links with my second dream : the guy that I
knew but didn't knew was him (and I, in fact, knew him by name and
reputation without knowing him in reality), he was in the fire because
he was a sorcerer and he ran out of it because he came to Islam, he then
took my hand to invite me to Islam... etc.

Now I come back to my
first dream. As I made searches about Islam throughout the year 2012, I
came across many, many youtube videos of converts, videos about the
quran and so on. One of those videos shown me the verse 4:171 of the
quran.

Quote
O
People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say
about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was
but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a
soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His
messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
I
cried. I remembered my dream, my christian mother screaming "c'est le
numéro 171" (this is the number 171). I noticed my mother has said four
words, followed by the number 171. 4:171. This verse was talking
directly to Christians, like my mother. This verse was telling my mother
that she'd go to hell, and in fact in my first dream it seemed like it.
She transmitted me her religion, just as in my dream she transmitted me
the fire of the lighter...

Quote
We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness?
When
I saw this verse during my research about Islam, it was too much for
me... I began to think that if I was not willing to accept any religion,
not even Islam, something was probably wrong with me. Was it the devil
tricking me? Was it because I deserved to go to hell anyway? Was it
because I was arrogant towards God? I continued my research... why
wasn't I becoming a muslim yet? Was it because I feared the reaction of
my christian family? Was it because I would have to change my name? (Not
that I thought every convert must change his/her name... but in my case
my name is actually blasphemous, and I saw that a muslim can't have a
blasphemous name. My name is Jézabel, (French version of Jezebel) and
according to some christian sites it means "Baal is the god"... quite
ironic since I was baptized Catholic [Image: afro.gif])"

There is no evidence that hell exists and there is no evidence that dreams are messages from anywhere other than inside your own head.
Start there.

And welcome to the forum.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
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12-02-2013, 05:22 PM
RE: Help
(12-02-2013 04:24 PM)okayjustshutup Wrote:  However, I still have fears of hell (eternal, never-ending punishment), and I am comfortable in getting rid of those fears rationally.
Well, if you are comfortable getting rid of those fears rationally then do so; Hell is a fictional construct to manipulate superstitious people. There's no such place or thing as hell or a hell. Dismiss your superstition, you dismiss your fear.

(12-02-2013 04:24 PM)okayjustshutup Wrote:  However, this story has troubled me now for a long time, and I hope to seek your advice. This story is verbatim from my friend, and it is long, but I urge you to read it for the sake of helping me, and hopefully, even helping yourself.
What kind of advice? This helps me in no way... in fact, it wastes my time just as much as superstition is a waste of time.

(12-02-2013 04:24 PM)okayjustshutup Wrote:  However, I still do not have a rational explanation for this, and I would love to hear opinions.
So, you want a rational explanation for a dream, created in the mind of a person who you knew at the time to be interpreting a dream, created in her mind... because what? Dreams are a construct of one's mind - it's stuff made up from the leftovers of our day and have nothing to do with real life. My advice to you would be to stop listening to other people talk about their dreams since they are not only irrelevant to their life but more importantly, they are irrelevant to your life.

Interesting name. Dodgy
Check the place out, it's an international forum and there is always something going on of interest.

Welcome to the forum. Smile

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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12-02-2013, 05:46 PM
RE: Help
Sorry but all I heard was, "blah blah blah" Dodgy

End of story

Humankind Dodgy (a total misnomer)
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12-02-2013, 06:16 PM
RE: Help
You should take up writing fairy tales, you're good at it.

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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13-02-2013, 04:13 PM
RE: Help
ermmmmm

[Image: vjp09.gif]
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13-02-2013, 04:21 PM
RE: Help
ECHO


ECHO


echo


***

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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