Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
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07-02-2017, 05:37 PM
Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
Hi all. I confess I found the forums after finding little atheist help for this question.

In my departure from religion, I always promised myself that if evidence came along to return me to it, I would take it. However, I just recently found a verse I had not read in my 2 year deconversion. Matthew 12:31-2 describes the "unforgivable" or "eternal" (depending on translation) sin. This is called "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." I fear to commit this even while disbelieving the Bible.

I was fine taking the atheist position before knowing this verse, but the prospect of being proved wrong and being utterly helpless to change my fate is more terrifying still. What if I find compelling evidence of Christianity the day after committing the sin?

I don't mean to judge anyone else by this, but: It seems arrogant to me to say "I am so certain that Christianity is false that I am willing to cut off all chance of forgiveness if it is right."

Furthermore, Christians are in dispute over what the sin means. My fear is so great that I have stopped collaborating with writers who were my friends, for fear that they would commit the sin in their work and I would share in the guilt.

Can someone help me with this?
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07-02-2017, 05:43 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
So don’t. It makes you neither more or less likely to piss off an already nasty and vengeful non-entity.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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07-02-2017, 05:45 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(07-02-2017 05:37 PM)SylvanAuctor Wrote:  Can someone help me with this?

Sure, change your writing style.

#sigh
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07-02-2017, 05:55 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
Matthew also includes the part about the dead saints getting out of their graves and walking around the city Wink

But I can see this is bothering you so...the unforgivable sin is a constant and deliberate Fuck you to God. If you never ever went back to God, that would be constant and willful disobedience/blasphemy against God. In the Christian religion, it's a *constant* hardening of your heart against God. If you received new "evidence" that you felt compelled you to go back to God, then you would be forgiven. All sins are forgiven under Jesus--even the unforgivable one--if you believe and decide to have an unhardened heart against him.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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07-02-2017, 05:59 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(07-02-2017 05:55 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Matthew also includes the part about the dead saints getting out of their graves and walking around the city Wink

But I can see this is bothering you so...the unforgivable sin is a constant and deliberate Fuck you to God. If you never ever went back to God, that would be constant and willful disobedience/blasphemy against God. In the Christian religion, it's a *constant* hardening of your heart against God. If you received new "evidence" that you felt compelled you to go back to God, then you would be forgiven. All sins are forgiven under Jesus--even the unforgivable one--if you believe and decide to have an unhardened heart against him.

How do we know that's the case though? It could be interpreted differently.
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07-02-2017, 06:07 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(07-02-2017 05:37 PM)SylvanAuctor Wrote:  Hi all. I confess I found the forums after finding little atheist help for this question.

In my departure from religion, I always promised myself that if evidence came along to return me to it, I would take it. However, I just recently found a verse I had not read in my 2 year deconversion. Matthew 12:31-2 describes the "unforgivable" or "eternal" (depending on translation) sin. This is called "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." I fear to commit this even while disbelieving the Bible.

I was fine taking the atheist position before knowing this verse, but the prospect of being proved wrong and being utterly helpless to change my fate is more terrifying still. What if I find compelling evidence of Christianity the day after committing the sin?

I don't mean to judge anyone else by this, but: It seems arrogant to me to say "I am so certain that Christianity is false that I am willing to cut off all chance of forgiveness if it is right."

Furthermore, Christians are in dispute over what the sin means. My fear is so great that I have stopped collaborating with writers who were my friends, for fear that they would commit the sin in their work and I would share in the guilt.

Can someone help me with this?

Not I.
If you can't see the absurdity of the whole thing, then it is your gullibility that is harming you.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-02-2017, 06:08 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(07-02-2017 05:59 PM)SylvanAuctor Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 05:55 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Matthew also includes the part about the dead saints getting out of their graves and walking around the city Wink

But I can see this is bothering you so...the unforgivable sin is a constant and deliberate Fuck you to God. If you never ever went back to God, that would be constant and willful disobedience/blasphemy against God. In the Christian religion, it's a *constant* hardening of your heart against God. If you received new "evidence" that you felt compelled you to go back to God, then you would be forgiven. All sins are forgiven under Jesus--even the unforgivable one--if you believe and decide to have an unhardened heart against him.

How do we know that's the case though? It could be interpreted differently.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that an all powerful being would make his book so hard to understand Tongue It almost seems like people wrote it all by themselves Wink

When you get to the pearly gates, you can quote God right out of his own book if he gives you any hassle about entering:

Psalm 103:12, John 1:7, John 3:16, 3:17, John 19:30, John 1:29, Hebrews 9:14, Acts 10:43.

From Gotquestions.org (they are all about Jesus). I would add, it is a very good website as far as Christian websites go.

"Many people fear they have committed some sin that God cannot or will not forgive, and they feel there is no hope for them, no matter what they do. Satan would like nothing more than to keep people laboring under that misconception. God gives encouragement to the sinner who is convicted of his sin: “Come near to God and he will come near to you” (James 4:8). “Where sin increased, grace increased all the more” (Romans 5:20). And the testimony of Paul is proof positive that God can and will save anyone who comes to Him in faith (1 Timothy 1:12–17). If you are suffering under a load of guilt today, rest assured that you have not committed the unpardonable sin. God is waiting with open arms. Jesus’ promise is that “he is able to save completely those who come to God through him” (Hebrews 7:25). Our Lord will never fail. “Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The LORD, the LORD himself, is my strength and my defense; he has become my salvation” (Isaiah 12:2)."

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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07-02-2017, 06:13 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(07-02-2017 06:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 05:37 PM)SylvanAuctor Wrote:  Hi all. I confess I found the forums after finding little atheist help for this question.

In my departure from religion, I always promised myself that if evidence came along to return me to it, I would take it. However, I just recently found a verse I had not read in my 2 year deconversion. Matthew 12:31-2 describes the "unforgivable" or "eternal" (depending on translation) sin. This is called "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." I fear to commit this even while disbelieving the Bible.

I was fine taking the atheist position before knowing this verse, but the prospect of being proved wrong and being utterly helpless to change my fate is more terrifying still. What if I find compelling evidence of Christianity the day after committing the sin?

I don't mean to judge anyone else by this, but: It seems arrogant to me to say "I am so certain that Christianity is false that I am willing to cut off all chance of forgiveness if it is right."

Furthermore, Christians are in dispute over what the sin means. My fear is so great that I have stopped collaborating with writers who were my friends, for fear that they would commit the sin in their work and I would share in the guilt.

Can someone help me with this?

Not I.
If you can't see the absurdity of the whole thing, then it is your gullibility that is harming you.

I'm trying very hard to see the absurdity, but the fear remains. I'm fresh out of religion and still trying to deal with the fears. Sorry if that's outside what you can help, but I just want out of this terror.
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07-02-2017, 06:20 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(07-02-2017 06:08 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 05:59 PM)SylvanAuctor Wrote:  How do we know that's the case though? It could be interpreted differently.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that an all powerful being would make his book so hard to understand Tongue It almost seems like people wrote it all by themselves Wink

When you get to the pearly gates, you can quote God right out of his own book if he gives you any hassle about entering:

Psalm 103:12, John 1:7, John 3:16, 3:17, John 19:30, John 1:29, Hebrews 9:14, Acts 10:43.

From Gotquestions.org (they are all about Jesus). I would add, it is a very good website as far as Christian websites go.

"Many people fear they have committed some sin that God cannot or will not forgive, and they feel there is no hope for them, no matter what they do. Satan would like nothing more than to keep people laboring under that misconception. God gives encouragement to the sinner who is convicted of his sin: “Come near to God and he will come near to you” (James 4:8). “Where sin increased, grace increased all the more” (Romans 5:20). And the testimony of Paul is proof positive that God can and will save anyone who comes to Him in faith (1 Timothy 1:12–17). If you are suffering under a load of guilt today, rest assured that you have not committed the unpardonable sin. God is waiting with open arms. Jesus’ promise is that “he is able to save completely those who come to God through him” (Hebrews 7:25). Our Lord will never fail. “Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The LORD, the LORD himself, is my strength and my defense; he has become my salvation” (Isaiah 12:2)."

I've tried reading the verses before, but still this stays with me. Sorry to make you look things up that I already did. Thank you though.
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07-02-2017, 06:27 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
A god who creates a hidden kind of sin that's unforgivable is not worth worshiping. But also, this god is fictional.

This passage was written by people who wanted control of others and knew that often, the more nebulous the fear, the easier it is to use as a lever. They want you to be scared and uncertain. You don't have to play that game.
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