Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
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07-02-2017, 06:31 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(07-02-2017 06:20 PM)SylvanAuctor Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 06:08 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Doesn't it strike you as odd that an all powerful being would make his book so hard to understand Tongue It almost seems like people wrote it all by themselves Wink

When you get to the pearly gates, you can quote God right out of his own book if he gives you any hassle about entering:

Psalm 103:12, John 1:7, John 3:16, 3:17, John 19:30, John 1:29, Hebrews 9:14, Acts 10:43.

From Gotquestions.org (they are all about Jesus). I would add, it is a very good website as far as Christian websites go.

"Many people fear they have committed some sin that God cannot or will not forgive, and they feel there is no hope for them, no matter what they do. Satan would like nothing more than to keep people laboring under that misconception. God gives encouragement to the sinner who is convicted of his sin: “Come near to God and he will come near to you” (James 4:8). “Where sin increased, grace increased all the more” (Romans 5:20). And the testimony of Paul is proof positive that God can and will save anyone who comes to Him in faith (1 Timothy 1:12–17). If you are suffering under a load of guilt today, rest assured that you have not committed the unpardonable sin. God is waiting with open arms. Jesus’ promise is that “he is able to save completely those who come to God through him” (Hebrews 7:25). Our Lord will never fail. “Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The LORD, the LORD himself, is my strength and my defense; he has become my salvation” (Isaiah 12:2)."

I've tried reading the verses before, but still this stays with me. Sorry to make you look things up that I already did. Thank you though.

If God does exist, why would you want to worship a being who won't forgive you when you tell him you are sorry and you made a mistake? This is the same being who gave you a mind to investigate and analyze information. The same being, who created a world that does not coincide with what we find within the pages of his magical book.

As you know, there is no evidence of Noah's flood. No evidence that the world is 6,000 years old. No evidence that we are the ancestors of humans made magically from rib and dust. No evidence that prayer works. No evidence of this God deity.

He wrote a book *through people* and then left. He didn't even write the book on his own, so you are left to the interpretations of people who believed the sun traveled through the underworld.

If a being like this will not forgive you, is that someone you really want to spend eternity with, someone deserving of worship?

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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07-02-2017, 06:36 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
I highly recommend Bart Ehrman's The OT and The NT, Introductions to. These two books are very well written and easy to understand. I think it would be helpful to see where your beliefs came from, to understand the mindset of the culture at this time. The Bible was written by people. Not by a God through people. The more you learn about all of this, the easier it is to put your old beliefs behind you and to see them for what they really are--make-believe. The Bible is just a book, like any other book on your bookshelf. It has no more power than a Dictionary.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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07-02-2017, 06:38 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(07-02-2017 06:13 PM)SylvanAuctor Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 06:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  Not I.
If you can't see the absurdity of the whole thing, then it is your gullibility that is harming you.

I'm trying very hard to see the absurdity, but the fear remains. I'm fresh out of religion and still trying to deal with the fears. Sorry if that's outside what you can help, but I just want out of this terror.

Your fear is irrational. There is no reason to fear that in which you have no belief.
Do you fear the bogeyman? Demonic possession? Evil spirits?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-02-2017, 06:44 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(07-02-2017 05:37 PM)SylvanAuctor Wrote:  Hi all. I confess I found the forums after finding little atheist help for this question.

In my departure from religion, I always promised myself that if evidence came along to return me to it, I would take it. However, I just recently found a verse I had not read in my 2 year deconversion. Matthew 12:31-2 describes the "unforgivable" or "eternal" (depending on translation) sin. This is called "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." I fear to commit this even while disbelieving the Bible.

I was fine taking the atheist position before knowing this verse, but the prospect of being proved wrong and being utterly helpless to change my fate is more terrifying still. What if I find compelling evidence of Christianity the day after committing the sin?

I don't mean to judge anyone else by this, but: It seems arrogant to me to say "I am so certain that Christianity is false that I am willing to cut off all chance of forgiveness if it is right."

Furthermore, Christians are in dispute over what the sin means. My fear is so great that I have stopped collaborating with writers who were my friends, for fear that they would commit the sin in their work and I would share in the guilt.

Can someone help me with this?

Learn who wrote the bible and why, education can lead you from this fear.

The bible is written by mostly anonymous authors, it would be like walking by someone dressed as a clown on the street and they hand you a note saying you are going to the clown inferno after you die. Would that really frighten you?

Start with this series and gain an understanding of who wrote these books and why:

How Jesus became god by Bart Ehrman:




Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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07-02-2017, 06:54 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(07-02-2017 05:37 PM)SylvanAuctor Wrote:  Hi all. I confess I found the forums after finding little atheist help for this question.

In my departure from religion, I always promised myself that if evidence came along to return me to it, I would take it. However, I just recently found a verse I had not read in my 2 year deconversion. Matthew 12:31-2 describes the "unforgivable" or "eternal" (depending on translation) sin. This is called "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." I fear to commit this even while disbelieving the Bible.

I was fine taking the atheist position before knowing this verse, but the prospect of being proved wrong and being utterly helpless to change my fate is more terrifying still. What if I find compelling evidence of Christianity the day after committing the sin?

I don't mean to judge anyone else by this, but: It seems arrogant to me to say "I am so certain that Christianity is false that I am willing to cut off all chance of forgiveness if it is right."

Furthermore, Christians are in dispute over what the sin means. My fear is so great that I have stopped collaborating with writers who were my friends, for fear that they would commit the sin in their work and I would share in the guilt.

Can someone help me with this?

"Whoever shall speak against the Holy Great Pumpkin, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come,"

The Holy Great Pumpkin can go fuck itself. Or ... do you believe it also exists just because I also put it in writing?

How about Russel's Teapot? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Allah? Venus? Or just put any other proclaimed deity into the same sentence. Would you have a problem then?

You see, if you are willing to speak against any other deity that was proclaimed to exist, then you need to think about why you are hanging on to this Holy Spirit thing. I mean, if you can flip off all other deities because you think they are ridiculous, then what is the difference between them and this Holy Spirit one?

There is no difference. 6 of 1, all are complete crap.
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07-02-2017, 07:36 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
OK. ALL the Buddhists (and anyone else who isn't an xtian, or who doesn't believe all the same things as all the other sects of xtianity) are going to hell? Hell was invented to control people by fear, end of story.

ALL religion is invented. Anything later invented by the leaders of a religion is further suspect (AKA, NOT TRUE).
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07-02-2017, 07:45 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(07-02-2017 07:36 PM)Fireball Wrote:  OK. ALL the Buddhists (and anyone else who isn't an xtian, or who doesn't believe all the same things as all the other sects of xtianity) are going to hell? Hell was invented to control people by fear, end of story.

ALL religion is invented. Anything later invented by the leaders of a religion is further suspect (AKA, NOT TRUE).

The OT version of hell and the NT version of hell are completely different, which also showcases both are a man-made creation. The Christian concept of light/dark, good/evil came from the Zoroastrians (another group of people with their own set of gods). The Christians adopted Zoroastrian beliefs because the Zoroastrians were skilled at conquering things. As such, the thought was, they must have the better gods and beliefs. So Christians adopted many of Zoroastrian beliefs into their own belief set.




"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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07-02-2017, 08:00 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
Christianity professes unconditional love, except for one thing. As Inigo Montoya says: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Do you really think if the god of the Bible actually exists that he is so insecure as to ACTUALLY be THAT god of the Bible? I know what you're going through, but it's too late. The fact that you're looking for a reason to blaspheme the holy jizz means you are already screwed if this petulant monster exists.

Relax, we'll all be in hell with you making you laugh. By the way, hell isn't real either. It's man-made and can be proved to be as such. Lose the irrational fear and live your one life.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
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07-02-2017, 08:10 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2017 01:46 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
Here’s a little limerick I wrote.

A Christian a Moslem and Jew

Argued 'bout whose God was true.
They yelled and they screamed

And all three blasphemed

With no God to insult in my view.


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“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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07-02-2017, 08:14 PM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2017 08:28 PM by cactus.)
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
Ask yourself this:
What motives would human beings have had to require other people to be convinced of one particular set of non-falsifiable claims over another?

Don't just rely on your gut instinct to answer this question. Rely on your own inquisitiveness and a desire for a factual understanding of world history. Definitely spend some time studying the various ancient Mediterranean cultures, and the political and religious disputes that were taking place during the time that the books of the New Testament were being transcribed and compiled.

If we came from dust, then why is there still dust?
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