Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
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08-02-2017, 11:02 AM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(07-02-2017 05:37 PM)SylvanAuctor Wrote:  It seems arrogant to me to say "I am so certain that Christianity is false that I am willing to cut off all chance of forgiveness if it is right."

Your dilemma has nothing to do with "arrogance" but everything to do with rationalism.

Naturally—as a devout Christian for many years—your deconversion will take time, maybe years to be completed. And if you're still thinking this way about biblical scripture and its consequences, then it's obvious you're not a "fully fledged" atheist yet.

BTW, don't accept Pascal's wager as relevant in any way to your decision-making processes. It's a theologically flawed argument anyway, and was intended simply to reassure believers in the Christian god—rather than convert non-believers. It's highly overrated as a debating tool.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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08-02-2017, 11:35 AM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
It is not possible to blaspheme Holy Spirit. Either one doesn't know wtf one is talking about - which is nearly all the time - or it's part of you. It'd be like blaspheme against your big toe. Tongue

There was a big kerfuffle back in 2007 when the Rational Responders got online and announced free copies of Dawkin's God Delusion to any who would video themselves "committing" this act. At the time a group of Christians proclaimed that the act could have happened only once, by Jesus, and the whole thing was a charade. Which, of course, it was.

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08-02-2017, 11:36 AM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
Quote:This is called "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit."


Fuck the holy spirit.

See how easy.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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08-02-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(08-02-2017 11:36 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:This is called "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit."


Fuck the holy spirit.

See how easy.

Is it possible to fuck the Holy Spirit? I think this would make a great phone in question Consider

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-02-2017, 05:31 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(07-02-2017 05:37 PM)SylvanAuctor Wrote:  Hi all. I confess I found the forums after finding little atheist help for this question.

In my departure from religion, I always promised myself that if evidence came along to return me to it, I would take it. However, I just recently found a verse I had not read in my 2 year deconversion. Matthew 12:31-2 describes the "unforgivable" or "eternal" (depending on translation) sin. This is called "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." I fear to commit this even while disbelieving the Bible.

I was fine taking the atheist position before knowing this verse, but the prospect of being proved wrong and being utterly helpless to change my fate is more terrifying still. What if I find compelling evidence of Christianity the day after committing the sin?

I don't mean to judge anyone else by this, but: It seems arrogant to me to say "I am so certain that Christianity is false that I am willing to cut off all chance of forgiveness if it is right."

Furthermore, Christians are in dispute over what the sin means. My fear is so great that I have stopped collaborating with writers who were my friends, for fear that they would commit the sin in their work and I would share in the guilt.

Can someone help me with this?

You're worried that there's a god so petty that he'd inflict ultimate torment on you for insulting part of him and you're worried that you might not get to spend eternity with him?

Where is this wondrous place called hell and how do blaspheme against this holey spirit jackass?

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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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08-02-2017, 07:45 PM
Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(08-02-2017 11:36 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:This is called "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit."


Fuck the holy spirit.

See how easy.


You need to take Mins advice on this. Tell the Holy Spirit to fuck itself every day. After a while it will seem silly to you and then you will have no more fear.
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08-02-2017, 08:13 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(07-02-2017 05:37 PM)SylvanAuctor Wrote:  I was fine taking the atheist position before knowing this verse....

That's the reason the verse exists. To scare you into belief.

Throw out the bible. Were it really from a god, it would have the recipe for disinfectant, information regarding disease etc.

There's a sucker born every minute. Don't be one.

Good luck. Smile

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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08-02-2017, 09:44 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(07-02-2017 05:37 PM)SylvanAuctor Wrote:  I don't mean to judge anyone else by this, but: It seems arrogant to me to say "I am so certain that Christianity is false that I am willing to cut off all chance of forgiveness if it is right."
Back when I was a fundamentalist, we believed in "the eternal security of the believer". This belief is so strong that my extended family, despite knowing of my longstanding apostasy, has never expressed the slightest concern that I am now going to hell. Because "once saved, always saved".

So I'm moved to ask, what is your doctrinal background -- a holiness church or something? Because this just doesn't seem normal to my theological underpinnings. What it reminds me of more than anything is that there always seemed to be a couple of people in our midst who never "felt saved" and no matter what oblations or rituals we led them through, they never felt any closure or assurance from it. The next time they heard an evangelistic message they felt "convicted" and guilty and needed to obsessively repent, over and over and over. The best we could do is to promise them that over time they would come to know the sureness of their salvation. To this day i regard it more as an expression of OCD tendencies than anything else.

You might wonder what we did to dispense with the unpardonable sin? We simply said the unpardonable sin was the sin of unbelief. Once a person had at some point declared their belief in the one true god and his son, that base was covered.

Now in listening to radio and TV preachers and reading books I have heard other fundamentalist types use the "unpardonable sin" as a template for whatever bogeyman they were particularly obsessed with. I've heard it equated with blasphemy (itself a highly subjective charge), masturbation or other sexual transgressions, divorce, suicide -- you name it. Whatever they want to scare you into (not) doing, it fits the template.

And that is the point. Much of scripture is a vague template that can be twisted to mean whatever the current crop of theologians and preachers want it to mean. The "unpardonable sin" is no different. It is just a particularly egregious example. Which is why we used to say the only thing it could possibly mean is to die without trusting Jesus, which ultimately is the only thing that cannot be forgiven ... it is the only thing that sends people to hell. To suggest there is some particularly NASTY sin that cancels god's grace is to denigrate the whole concept of salvation.

I do not think you are nearly so far along in your deconversion as you would like to think. Be patient with yourself. A lifetime (and probably a childhood) of indoctrination is not undone in a few months or even years. When a silly doctrine like this can unman you, it's clear that you don't really grok why religious faith is a failed epistemology and why it does not lead toward truth, but rather away from it.

It also is likely that your personal makeup is such that you're more vulnerable to certain kinds of suggestion and insinuation. Some people have such terrific bullshit filters that they are unbelieving almost from the cradle; others are so suggestible that they are simply tormented by their inability to believe and relieve the tension. Some, like me, are in between somewhere. In my case I kept barking my shins against egregious instances of where experienced reality did not comport itself in any way with the alleged "promises of god". People I loved literally had to suffer and die to deliver me from the pernicious lies of my faith of origin. This gave me the bullshit filter I wasn't born with. Some things, once experienced, can't be un-experienced.

Be patient with your journey, in time various light bulbs DO go on. But it can't be rushed, like a lot of things in life -- the processing of personal grief and loss for example. Some things just have to gestate.
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09-02-2017, 12:04 PM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2017 01:00 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
I'm just waiting for the rest of you to recognize dude's signature writing style. He's always got a couple of visages going on about nothing here. He's got a few right now. Just another bored dude looking to stick some atheist heathen pigman infidels for fun. Harmless enough until the pig takes notice.

#sigh
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09-02-2017, 12:36 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
It seems arrogant to me to claim that we are in need of forgiveness, or that a place like hell exists. Fuck that nonsense until proof is provided.
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