Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
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09-02-2017, 02:58 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(09-02-2017 12:04 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I'm just waiting for the rest of you to recognize dude's signature writing style. He's always got a couple of visages going on about nothing here. He's got a few right now. Just another bored dude looking to stick some atheist heathen pigman infidels for fun. Harmless enough until the pig takes notice.
I have not kept track. It didn't add up to me really, as I said. You can't have these kinds of concerns and also have a coherent view of either hamartiology or salvation as generally understood in fundamentalism. To suggest that there's this fabulous Plan of Salvation and then also suggest that it can be subverted by some random particular sin that would actually UNDO a done deal, is to exhibit your ignorance of your own theology.

Admittedly, fundies are not known for holding logically consistent views. However, they ARE generally known for being very clear on specific "pet" doctrines such as the ones I outlined. There is no way to claim that salvation is efficacious EXCEPT if you wank off or get depressed and kill yourself or change your mind and stop believing. It either saves you unequivocally or not at all. I have had many conversations with frustrated ministers of the gospel who lament that they cannot get this basic "truth" through the thick skulls of the chronic "I don't feel saved" types. If that is true, then there is no basis to imagine that a believer can lose their salvation either unless you want to say that forgiveness is provisional in some way and therefore dependent on man rather than god. Most fundies are not willing to go to this place; it's just that a few of of them are willing to use scare tactics to keep people in line, even AFTER they are converted. In my experience at least the scare-mongering stops after you have a profession of faith, lest you undermine much of the value proposition of fundamentalist ideology.

This has been borne out in my own experience; my believing relatives are concerned for my happiness and well-being after I deconverted, but not for my eternal destiny because they KNEW me for decades as a card-carrying tribal member. They tend to assume I'll return eventually. Yes, people who DON'T personally know your backstory often succumb to the circular "you were never one of us" bullshit but this is not how people who accepted you as a legit believer for decades handle the matter, as to do it that way would be to call their own worldview and ego investment into question.
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09-02-2017, 03:06 PM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(09-02-2017 02:58 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(09-02-2017 12:04 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I'm just waiting for the rest of you to recognize dude's signature writing style. He's always got a couple of visages going on about nothing here. He's got a few right now. Just another bored dude looking to stick some atheist heathen pigman infidels for fun. Harmless enough until the pig takes notice.
I have not kept track.

Yeah, I seen him way too many times. He doesn't even bother to hide his writing style anymore since that farcical attempt at being a Tunisian whose native tongue was Tagalog and barely spoke English. They're useful enough. The side conversations which result often end up interesting.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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10-02-2017, 02:34 AM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
The wager assumes that either Christianity is true, or nothing. That's not the case. Why pick that one?

It also assumes that pretending to believe something will fool a god. What stupid ass God is this? And if God is punishing us just for following evidence he presents (or doesn't), he's simply an evil fuck bag and we're all screwed anyway.

There's an infinite amount of possible "gods", each with an infinite amount of possible "religions" that could be based around them. For every action you're taking to please one potential God, you're displeasing an infinite number of other potential ones.

It's impossible to satisfy unknown hypotheticals, so it's best to concentrate on things that have evidence to distinguish them as something real. The bible is just a story book. It's only considered real (beyond mundane historical facts) because of the popularity and myths surrounding it.

Maybe God is testing our critical thinking. If you believe the bible, you fail. It's just as plausible. And it's why unfalsifiable ideas should be discarded. The opposite is also unfalsifiable.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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10-02-2017, 07:27 AM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(10-02-2017 02:34 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  It also assumes that pretending to believe something will fool a god. What stupid ass God is this? ...

This is the same stupid-ass God that is fooled by strictly observant Jews that they aren't violating the Shabbat rules with all sorts of ruses. He really is a dim bulb.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-02-2017, 08:54 AM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(10-02-2017 07:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-02-2017 02:34 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  It also assumes that pretending to believe something will fool a god. What stupid ass God is this? ...

This is the same stupid-ass God that is fooled by strictly observant Jews that they aren't violating the Shabbat rules with all sorts of ruses. He really is a dim bulb.

Apparently the objection to using electricity stems from some injunction against making fire? But the nifty thing is, it doesn't apply to *putting out* fire. So as long as your switches work by *breaking* the circuit, not completing it, you're golden. Laugh out load

Ya gotta hand it to these religious guys, they really are delightfully barmy sometimes Smile

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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15-02-2017, 11:42 AM
RE: Help! "Advanced" Pascal's Wager
(07-02-2017 05:37 PM)SylvanAuctor Wrote:  My fear is so great that I have stopped collaborating with writers who were my friends, for fear that they would commit the sin in their work and I would share in the guilt.

In order to understand this sin you need to consider the context of the statement and who it was that Jesus accused of committing it.

Quote:Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, “Can this be the Son of David?”

But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.”

Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Matthew 12:22-32

Jesus had driven a demon out of a man by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Pharisees accused him of acting under the power of Beelzebub. They were saying that the Holy Spirit was really Satan. In doing this they were deliberately blaspheming him. They were not acting out of ignorance; they had seen enough of Jesus' work to know he was really from God but they chose to reject this knowledge. Only someone who believes in God can commit this sin. I don't know anything about your past so I don't know whether you might have done so while you professed to be a Christian but you can't commit it now that you don't believe in God.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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