Help! Confused!
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14-03-2015, 06:36 PM
Help! Confused!
OK so I was talking to a theist today and they said I would only find evidence of god after I make a leap of faith.

So I got to thinking.. If someone did make that leap of faith and find evidence, then surely you no longer need belief or faith.. You have proof and facts.

Same as you can't still 'suspect' someone for a crime after you've received proof they did it. You don't suspect any more... You KNOW. You can't have it both ways

I'm not getting any straight answers on this yet.


Also.. doesn't this so called revealing of evidence go against the whole free will/gods want you to chose to love him/doesn't want you to be a robot type thing?

I'm not getting a straight answer, and I'm doubtful I never will. Am I right in assuming after something is proven to you, belief and faith is no longer an option?
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14-03-2015, 06:39 PM
RE: Help! Confused!
(14-03-2015 06:36 PM)TheStraightener Wrote:  Am I right in assuming after something is proven to you, belief and faith is no longer an option?

Yes, if something is proven, then you have evidence that supports that conclusion. Now, this is a very general statement, so maybe I could be more specific with a particular example. But well, if you possess evidence, or even multiple pieces of evidence, that point in the same direction, your conclusion is not baseless anymore.

Hope that helps.

孤独 - The Out Crowd
Life is a flash of light between two eternities of darkness.
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14-03-2015, 06:46 PM
RE: Help! Confused!
(14-03-2015 06:36 PM)TheStraightener Wrote:  ...
Am I right in assuming after something is proven to you, belief and faith is no longer an option?

Wrt 'faith' ... yes, you're right as faith is belief without evidence or simply, pretending to know things you don't really know.

But wrt 'belief' ... nope. You might believe that one building is taller than another of similar-ish size because from the ground it looks that way. You measure them and you were right ... so you continue to believe it, but this time with evidence.

Smile

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14-03-2015, 06:47 PM
RE: Help! Confused!
(14-03-2015 06:36 PM)TheStraightener Wrote:  OK so I was talking to a theist today and they said I would only find evidence of god after I make a leap of faith.

So I got to thinking.. If someone did make that leap of faith and find evidence, then surely you no longer need belief or faith.. You have proof and facts.

Same as you can't still 'suspect' someone for a crime after you've received proof they did it. You don't suspect any more... You KNOW. You can't have it both ways

I'm not getting any straight answers on this yet.


Also.. doesn't this so called revealing of evidence go against the whole free will/gods want you to chose to love him/doesn't want you to be a robot type thing?

I'm not getting a straight answer, and I'm doubtful I never will. Am I right in assuming after something is proven to you, belief and faith is no longer an option?

Lies, all of it. Walk away ... laughing ... hysterically ... uncontrollably.

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14-03-2015, 06:50 PM
RE: Help! Confused!
Quote:I'm not getting any straight answers on this yet.

Talking to theists you likely never will.
Believe first, and all will be revealed later seems to be their mantra. They never seem to get around to the second part.
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14-03-2015, 10:53 PM
RE: Help! Confused!
Use these bible quotes

Faith is the evidence of things not seen
We walk by faith, not by sight
More blessed are those who have not seen and believed

Even the bible contrasts faith with evidence. Once you begin to weigh evidence, faith is not required. This freaks them out since they claim to have a reasoned faith. Contradiction in terms, even by bible standards.
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14-03-2015, 11:41 PM
RE: Help! Confused!
(14-03-2015 10:53 PM)freetoreason Wrote:  Use these bible quotes

Faith is the evidence of things not seen
We walk by faith, not by sight
More blessed are those who have not seen and believed

Even the bible contrasts faith with evidence. Once you begin to weigh evidence, faith is not required. This freaks them out since they claim to have a reasoned faith. Contradiction in terms, even by bible standards.

Interesting take on it.

So you can have faith God is but you cannot know God is.

Yup, anyone who says they know God exists has lost their faith. Beautiful.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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14-03-2015, 11:53 PM
RE: Help! Confused!
(14-03-2015 06:36 PM)TheStraightener Wrote:  OK so I was talking to a theist today and they said I would only find evidence of god after I make a leap of faith.

So I got to thinking.. If someone did make that leap of faith and find evidence, then surely you no longer need belief or faith.. You have proof and facts.

Same as you can't still 'suspect' someone for a crime after you've received proof they did it. You don't suspect any more... You KNOW. You can't have it both ways

I'm not getting any straight answers on this yet.


Also.. doesn't this so called revealing of evidence go against the whole free will/gods want you to chose to love him/doesn't want you to be a robot type thing?

I'm not getting a straight answer, and I'm doubtful I never will. Am I right in assuming after something is proven to you, belief and faith is no longer an option?

Nonono. You're missing the beauty of it.

You see, you're a pretty smart guy. You don't NEED to be a pretty smart guy... anyone with just a little bit of common sense can do this... but it really helps.

Here's how the process works.

Step 1: Take your leap of faith.

Step 2: Look BACK at that leap of faith. Reflect about how, if there is no God, it would be a pretty stupid thing to do.

Step 3: Remember that you're a pretty smart guy, or at least that you have a bit of common sense.

Step 4: Therefore, you wouldn't do something as stupid as taking that leap of faith would have been if there was no God.

Step 5: Therefore, God must exist to have saved you from the stupidity that you would have otherwise been engaged in.

Step 6: Whenever you find yourself doubting this process, always reflect that you believed it once, and you're smart enough not to have been suckered by it if it weren't actually true.

Step 7: The part of your mind that engages in rationalization -- which God, in his infinite wisdom, made the most powerful part of your brain just for this moment -- will respond to your own embarrassment with a flurry of activity that ends with you realizing that God exists. The alternative, that you've been completely punked, is too shameful to be true.

So, bottom line, the leap of faith doesn't REVEAL the proof. It CREATES the proof. It manufactures it. It engages and coopts you into the business of proof-fabrication which is at the heart of sacred theology.
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15-03-2015, 02:23 AM
RE: Help! Confused!
I had a leap on Faith once.....

But her older sister caught us and she beat me with a tennis racket.....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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15-03-2015, 04:06 AM
RE: Help! Confused!
They use this "Faith" thing, when reason is not available to them. In other words, "I have no reason to believe what I believe." "Therefore, my belief in it is based upon my desire to believe it." Which is why people play the lottery.
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