Help! (First Cause)
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12-09-2016, 05:15 AM
RE: Help! (First Cause)
(12-09-2016 05:08 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  What was the "first cause" of the God who is the "first cause"?

I think what my dad would claim is that since God never came into existence, he doesn't need a cause/only caused things need a cause. However I'm thinking that makes very little sense as an explanation. Create a rule about the universe and then proceed to exempt something from that rule to solve a problem seems very circular.

I pretty much know this stuff, but keeping it in my head when I'm being thrown a million mind tricks a minute is a bit of a task. Nice to have it written down.

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12-09-2016, 05:27 AM
RE: Help! (First Cause)
(12-09-2016 05:15 AM)ErinRH2342 Wrote:  
(12-09-2016 05:08 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  What was the "first cause" of the God who is the "first cause"?

I think what my dad would claim is that since God never came into existence, he doesn't need a cause/only caused things need a cause. However I'm thinking that makes very little sense as an explanation. Create a rule about the universe and then proceed to exempt something from that rule to solve a problem seems very circular.
That's called "special pleading", where people try to exempt their position from the demands they make on others. It's a common fallacy.
Quote:I pretty much know this stuff, but keeping it in my head when I'm being thrown a million mind tricks a minute is a bit of a task. Nice to have it written down.
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12-09-2016, 11:11 AM
RE: Help! (First Cause)
(11-09-2016 09:03 PM)ErinRH2342 Wrote:  Okay. So my father's been trying to convince me of Christianity by the First Cause argument. I know there are problems with this argument, but I'm not a great debater and I keep getting turned around and it's really starting to mess with me.

So here's the thing I want to start: What do you think, must there be a prime mover? Why or why not? The argument I'm hearing is that either the universe started or it didn't. There can't be an infinite regress so there has to be something outside of time and space that began those things, that didn't have a cause because it never began to be. How would you recommend I deal with this? I apologize for any incoherence in the post, as it's very late at night and I wanted to get this typed out before I went to bed. Big Grin

A lot of arguments that the religious will use is nothing more than a false cause fallacy.

Jumping to conclusions based on insufficient information is where this god hides, it's no different than pointing to clouds and saying god made it. If a phenomenon seems complex- goddidit!

This is the standard fallacy that so many religious people use, here are some of the forms of it that you'll encounter:

Something can't come from nothing- so goddidit!

Something is complex- so goddidit! (A favorite of intelligent design arguments)

Something is unknown- goddidit!

This also goes hand in hand with the post-hoc fallacy. Just about every miracle claim is guilty of this, if someone gets better from cancer it was god. Doesn't matter if this could occur naturally or the person was receiving medical treatment to achieve this exact outcome- goddidit.

It's an example of sloppy and careless thinking.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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12-09-2016, 02:56 PM
RE: Help! (First Cause)
(12-09-2016 04:42 AM)morondog Wrote:  Ask him, if everything that exists has a cause, does God have a cause? And if God has a cause, then isn't he less that what caused him? And if he doesn't have a cause, then ipso facto by axiom (a), God does not exist Smile

After I read this I feel as if a thunder bolt of science just struck me an an "aha!" moment where I now suddenly feel at peace. Oh Sir! What genius compels thee? What hat in thou brain such wisdom without cause? Drooling
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12-09-2016, 03:02 PM
RE: Help! (First Cause)
(12-09-2016 02:56 PM)ScientificTruth321 Wrote:  
(12-09-2016 04:42 AM)morondog Wrote:  Ask him, if everything that exists has a cause, does God have a cause? And if God has a cause, then isn't he less that what caused him? And if he doesn't have a cause, then ipso facto by axiom (a), God does not exist Smile

After I read this I feel as if a thunder bolt of science just struck me an an "aha!" moment where I now suddenly feel at peace. Oh Sir! What genius compels thee? What hat in thou brain such wisdom without cause? Drooling

Whatever joke you're making is painfully laboured.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-09-2016, 04:18 PM
RE: Help! (First Cause)
What "caused" Causality (and how did that work), if it was not already in place ? If it was in place, his god is not the creator of Reality.

"Prime mover" is an action. Actions take time. Acting (creating) in a timeless environment is meaningless.

If his god 'exists', it found itself in a Reality that also encompassed non-existence. Where did THAT come from ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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12-09-2016, 04:18 PM
RE: Help! (First Cause)
(11-09-2016 09:03 PM)ErinRH2342 Wrote:  So here's the thing I want to start: What do you think, must there be a prime mover? Why or why not? The argument I'm hearing is that either the universe started or it didn't.
What is meant by "universe"?
What is meant by "started"?


If we term universe to mean the expansion of energy and matter that we observe around us. We can say, yes there was a point in time about 14 billion years ago where all this energy/and matter started to expand.

If we term universe to mean "all of existence, all of space and time, all of energy and matter" then we have no idea if it had a beginning.

If by "started" we mean the creation of energy and matter, well, according to known science energy cannot be created or destroyed.
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14-09-2016, 02:28 PM
RE: Help! (First Cause)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover#First_cause

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?t...irst_cause

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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14-09-2016, 02:49 PM
RE: Help! (First Cause)
I find these questions best answered by poetry. Well, after all the bible and koran are supposedly poetic.

Oh first cause?
Why were you the first cause?
What came before?
Your mother or a whore?
Will we find out?
Will will be first
When thou hast given thy secret up?
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14-09-2016, 02:58 PM
RE: Help! (First Cause)
What caused causation?
When did time begin?
Where did space start?

Ask a meaningless question and you'll get a meaningless answer like "42" or "god".

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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