Help Mojch Not Put His Foot In His Mouth
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23-05-2013, 06:49 PM (This post was last modified: 23-05-2013 08:01 PM by Mojch.)
Help Mojch Not Put His Foot In His Mouth
All:

During my time here in the forum so far, I have enjoyed the discussions offered by various members. However, I have noticed a problem with...

...me.

As I am sure many of you are aware, the language we use to describe the world around us is a product of the environment in which we live. As a believer, I spend lots of time not only in church but in Bible studies, etc. Therefore, I sometimes adopt the language used in these places without adequate consideration of the way such terms may be construed by those that either do not believe or hold contrary beliefs. Therefore, I sometimes inadvertently use terminology or phrasing that is, when rationally considered, clearly inappropriate to civil discourse. (See my embarrassing use of the phrase "gay worldview" in the thread Attack a Theist for a prime example.)

This is a problem that I need to fix. Thus, I ask you the following three questions...

1. What common phrases or statements made by theists offend you?
2. Why?
3. Is there an alternative method of phrasing you would suggest that might express the same concept but not be offensive to you? If not, why not?

Thanks for the help! To those who are waiting on replies from me in other threads, they will be forthcoming. I am trying to construct a coherent articulation of my entire world view so as to give everyone in-depth insight into the mind of at least one theist but, as you can imagine, it is a complex task.

Sincerely,

Mojch
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23-05-2013, 06:58 PM
RE: Help Mojche Not Put His Foot In His Mouth
1. Stupid and ignorant comments offend me. Not exclusive to those spoken by theists.

2. Because they are stupid comments, which most of the time are wrong by common sense alone.

3. It would depend on how it was phrased. But half the time, changing the words doesn't change the meaning.

Rephrase it so that the pile of shit is a pile of roses, doesn't matter. It is still a pile of shit.


The only way I can think of changing your views to make them seem less ridiculous would be to drop all religious concepts and work up from there until you have articulated your point.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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23-05-2013, 07:08 PM
RE: Help Mojche Not Put His Foot In His Mouth
(23-05-2013 06:49 PM)Mojch Wrote:  All:

During my time here in the forum so far, I have enjoyed the discussions offered by various members. However, I have noticed a problem with...

...me.

As I am sure many of you are aware, the language we use to describe the world around us is a product of the environment in which we live. As a believer, I spend lots of time not only in church but in Bible studies, etc. Therefore, I sometimes adopt the language used in these places without adequate consideration of the way such terms may be construed by those that either do not believe or hold contrary beliefs. Therefore, I sometimes inadvertently use terminology or phrasing that is, when rationally considered, clearly inappropriate to civil discourse. (See my embarrassing use of the phrase "gay worldview" in the thread Attack a Theist for a prime example.)

This is a problem that I need to fix. Thus, I ask you the following three questions...

1. What common phrases or statements made by theists offend you?
2. Why?
3. Is there an alternative method of phrasing you would suggest that might express the same concept but not be offensive to you? If not, why not?

Thanks for the help! To those who are waiting on replies from me in other threads, they will be forthcoming. I am trying to construct a coherent articulation of my entire world view so as to give everyone in-depth insight into the mind of at least one theist but, as you can imagine, it is a complex task.

Sincerely,

Mojch

What you are asking here seems to be the equivalent of saying "Look I didn't realize calling a group of young african americans the N word was wrong. How can I rephrase it to mean the same thing but not get crucified for it." It's all about the intent. The reason the Gay worldview thing went over like a lead balloon wasn't the phrasing it was the idea behind it. So call things what you will but be prepared to defend them or retract if you are unable.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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23-05-2013, 07:29 PM
RE: Help Mojche Not Put His Foot In His Mouth
Revenant,

I'm not asking how to rephrase offensive things to be inoffensive. My third question makes that unclear. I am asking for help in identifying basic phrases often employed that are inherently offensive but that a person not used to a non-believing environment might not recognize as offensive due to a lack of appropriate life experience.

Example: Gay worldview

Meaning Intended: in my environment, this usually means "the belief by most homosexuals that homosexuality is not immoral"

Meaning (understandably) Perceived: all gays are the same and have a singular worldview

I guess I am asking you to see if you can help identify prejudices believers may have developed as a result of language acquisition that are subtle (from our perspective, not yours) but clearly erroneous when rationalized.

Some of these terms express inoffensive ideas in an offensive manner (penis vs. $&@$) and others are inherently offensive (nothing I can write here). Thus, some could be rephrased, others can't.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

Sincerely,

Mojch
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23-05-2013, 07:44 PM
RE: Help Mojche Not Put His Foot In His Mouth
(23-05-2013 07:29 PM)Mojch Wrote:  Revenant,

I'm not asking how to rephrase offensive things to be inoffensive. My third question makes that unclear. I am asking for help in identifying basic phrases often employed that are inherently offensive but that a person not used to a non-believing environment might not recognize as offensive due to a lack of appropriate life experience.

Example: Gay worldview

Meaning Intended: in my environment, this usually means "the belief by most homosexuals that homosexuality is not immoral"

Meaning (understandably) Perceived: all gays are the same and have a singular worldview

I guess I am asking you to see if you can help identify prejudices believers may have developed as a result of language acquisition that are subtle (from our perspective, not yours) but clearly erroneous when rationalized.

Some of these terms express inoffensive ideas in an offensive manner (penis vs. $&@$) and others are inherently offensive (nothing I can write here). Thus, some could be rephrased, others can't.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

Sincerely,

Mojch

Sometimes you just have to take your lumps as they come. I've gotten called out on a few things here and there. Consider it a learning experience. Besides you are here to strengthen your arguments for God right? If anything these faux paus should help you do so because in the future you wouldn't use them and distract from your argument.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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23-05-2013, 07:53 PM
RE: Help Mojche Not Put His Foot In His Mouth
Revanent,

I understand that. I just wanted to prevent unnecesssry offense by heading things off early. Good lawyers analyze their language from different perspectives to root out (or in some cases add) subtle bias depending on the environment. Language obtains meaning from circumstances and, since I'm new here, I thought asking directly might avoid unnecesary offense. Your method requires offending and then correcting. I wanted to avoid that.

Sincerely,

Mojch

PS - Misspelled my own name in the post title? Stupid Iphone.
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23-05-2013, 07:58 PM
RE: Help Mojche Not Put His Foot In His Mouth
(23-05-2013 07:53 PM)Mojch Wrote:  Revanent,

I understand that. I just wanted to prevent unnecesssry offense by heading things off early. Good lawyers analyze their language from different perspectives to root out (or in some cases add) subtle bias depending on the environment. Language obtains meaning from circumstances and, since I'm new here, I thought asking directly might avoid unnecesary offense. Your method requires offending and then correcting. I wanted to avoid that.

Sincerely,

Mojch

PS - Misspelled my own name in the post title? Stupid Iphone.

Well follow FT's advice and that will remove most of the problem. As a side note you can edit the title of a thread if your are the OP.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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23-05-2013, 08:26 PM
RE: Help Mojche Not Put His Foot In His Mouth
M, you've done better than many theists are far as civil discourse here. I won't speak to the gay remark as others have done so. Since the ideas of sin, heaven/hell, in/out, judgment etc. are inherent in Christianity, I'm not sure it's possible to just polish up the language. Most of the reasons I pulled away from Christianity had to do with the plausibility or rather lack thereof in my mind of the historical truth of the bible, the contradictions in it, the lack of evidence to me of a god, the many similar myths to the Jesus story before Jesus supposedly existed, and the number of "one true faiths" that have come and gone. Sure, I get PO'd at narrow mindedness and judgment, and this can be found anywhere humans are. But I see so much of it in the religion where I grew up and live. The followers of it honestly think it's their duty to tell me I'm wrong, make me repent, and tell me to turn or burn. It's really annoying at work, but that's another story. No matter how dressed up the words, or how the person smiles when they say it, it's still making me wrong, telling me I'm wrong or implying that I just haven't heard it presented the right way, or that I'm just stubborn or too thick to get the message, when they have no idea how much I have read and studied and in many cases,know more than they do of their own scriptures.

There will always be disagreement between theists and atheists. No amount of pretty words can convince me of the truth of any religion. No amount of disapproval, threats of hell, or apologetics, nothing short of direct evidence, will change my mind. It's not a matter of how theists come across or debate or how eloquent they are, it's simply a lack of evidence. And if a person staunchly believes in god and comes to a board specifically designed for people who do not, some contention will likely arise because as the old song says, we just disagree. I'm not saying don't come here, but a realistic expectation is that it won't be easy, at least not here. You've no doubt seen we fight amongst ourselves too! This is because we are people with a lot of opinions.

I don't know if that answered any of what you were asking, but I hope it helps.

Godless in the Magnolia State
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23-05-2013, 09:16 PM
RE: Help Mojche Not Put His Foot In His Mouth
(23-05-2013 07:53 PM)Mojch Wrote:  Revanent,

I understand that. I just wanted to prevent unnecesssry offense by heading things off early. Good lawyers analyze their language from different perspectives to root out (or in some cases add) subtle bias depending on the environment. Language obtains meaning from circumstances and, since I'm new here, I thought asking directly might avoid unnecesary offense. Your method requires offending and then correcting. I wanted to avoid that.

Sincerely,

Mojch

PS - Misspelled my own name in the post title? Stupid Iphone.

It's true what you say about lawyers, and as I'm a law student, I'll share the wisdom passed unto us with you:

Never generalize unless you have truly awesome arguments and evidence to sustain the generalization.

If you're going to talk about a possibly delicate topic, read at least three sources of information about the position against your own. This helps you in two ways, first it gives you insight on the other side of the topic, and it makes you familiar with the language (meaning, scope and connotation of words and phrases), all that gives you agility to adapt your arguments and to understand the other part.

Analyse the central concepts of your argument from the other's perspective and in a critical way, in the case of "gay worldview" you could've avoided complications by reading that concept as if you were gay. I'm gay and when I read it it sounded empty, it means nothing by itself, so I must search meaning deeper (to understand the argument), and thus I find a clear prejudice in it (because of the generalization and the similarity with other prejudicial concepts like "gay lifestyle" and alike).
You didn't mean it, I get that, but we're talking about what's perceived, and that's what I perceived.

Proofread, usually (specially in forums) we just write things as they come into our minds, it's not always counter-productive, but since you're dealing with sensitive issues, rereading what you wrote will most certainly help you detect the offensive bits.

Take the hits. If after all that you still offended someone, see if they're right and apologize if you made a mistake and leave it at that, don't dig too much and move on otherwise your points will get lost in the smoke of the flame war.
If you think you didn't do anything wrong, ask yourself if you can afford to offend them. Sometimes we can't make a point without somebody getting hurt, some people are just to sensitive, that's their problem, or maybe we're wrong about our ideas, but if it's the latter we must find the reasons why we're wrong and not just back out because someone got offended.


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23-05-2013, 09:34 PM
RE: Help Mojch Not Put His Foot In His Mouth
(23-05-2013 06:49 PM)Mojch Wrote:  All:

During my time here in the forum so far, I have enjoyed the discussions offered by various members. However, I have noticed a problem with...

...me.

As I am sure many of you are aware, the language we use to describe the world around us is a product of the environment in which we live. As a believer, I spend lots of time not only in church but in Bible studies, etc. Therefore, I sometimes adopt the language used in these places without adequate consideration of the way such terms may be construed by those that either do not believe or hold contrary beliefs. Therefore, I sometimes inadvertently use terminology or phrasing that is, when rationally considered, clearly inappropriate to civil discourse. (See my embarrassing use of the phrase "gay worldview" in the thread Attack a Theist for a prime example.)

This is a problem that I need to fix. Thus, I ask you the following three questions...

1. What common phrases or statements made by theists offend you?
2. Why?
3. Is there an alternative method of phrasing you would suggest that might express the same concept but not be offensive to you? If not, why not?

Thanks for the help! To those who are waiting on replies from me in other threads, they will be forthcoming. I am trying to construct a coherent articulation of my entire world view so as to give everyone in-depth insight into the mind of at least one theist but, as you can imagine, it is a complex task.

Sincerely,

Mojch

It's a little refreshing to me that you're really seem to be trying. It's nice.

As far as things that might upset....dunno...broad generalizations like all atheists believe x, might be an issue.

I don't speak for anyone but myself tho...

Writing out stuff on phones isn't easy. Auto-correct personally hates me!


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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