Help Needed for debate!
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07-09-2016, 02:56 PM
RE: Help Needed for debate!
Well I've been the victim of rape ams it's no fun at all. I was drunk at home in my own bed and someone broke in and raped me. I was so drunk I couldn't finght back.
The guy that did it to me knew I was drunk and followed me home. I of course had no idea. When the police got involved they said yep we know him very well. So he's don't this before and he is still out and able to rape others?
My point is that I could care less what any religion says about rape weather it's right or wrong and in what situations weather its right or wrong.
The thing is that rape is wrong period no matter the situation! And those are NOT guidelines to go by when we know that every situation is different and there are so many reasons a woman may not cry out. And to use that as a guideline is wrong! Especially since it blames the woman more rimes then the man and normally it is the man that forced himself but the woman is to blame! Sick!
Eta: the fact that woman were forced to marry their rapist says it all!
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07-09-2016, 03:04 PM
RE: Help Needed for debate!
Did they arrest him?

Oh and Islam isn't the only that condemn's rape victims. The worst the bible does is fine the perp and or force the perp to marry the victim. But even in India and China, rape isn't as reported in those countries because they also "slut shame". Our right wing Christians do the same.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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07-09-2016, 03:19 PM
RE: Help Needed for debate!
(07-09-2016 03:04 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Did they arrest him?

Oh and Islam isn't the only that condemn's rape victims. The worst the bible does is fine the perp and or force the perp to marry the victim. But even in India and China, rape isn't as reported in those countries because they also "slut shame". Our right wing Christians do the same.
No they didn't since it was word against word and be had a guy that said he was with him at that time. Grrr
But yes I know that and what I should have said is that we shouldn't be using any kind of religious guidelines they are all messed up and make no sense and everything tinly little thing warrants death
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07-09-2016, 03:30 PM
RE: Help Needed for debate!
(07-09-2016 02:06 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(07-09-2016 01:18 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Even thou it brings slight clarification. It still falls into some of the problems that often arrise.

1. The woman is still a victim.
2. The woman was already put into a compromising postion. What would prevent this rapist from muzzling her to prevent her from calling for help. Threatening her life with a weapon. Having her screams being drowned out by the comings and goings of everyday city life. Or what about a gang of men working together?

Torah does not cover every single possible situation that can conceivably be played out by humanity, nor does it claim to. It’s designed to provide the Jewish people with a basic set of principles for right and wrong. We must take those principles and apply them to different situations as needed. All Torah is doing here is defining that rape is wrong, and it's making the distinction between actual rape and consensual sex. In the event that the woman has multiple attackers, the Torah tells the Jewish people to rely on a court to decide how best to apply the law.

(07-09-2016 01:18 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  I've been a victim (not of rape thankfully) but of bulling where my well being was compromised and I was a guy. I was pushed off a cliff then beaten with stones. I was pinned to a wall chocked with a staff and had objects tossed in my eyes for sport. Each time I was within ear shot of help and was prevented. Now at the time I was a boy. But how could a young girl had done anything different. And when I did tell an authority figure what had happened I was told I was lying.

I’m so sorry! That sounds really horrible. It’s true that in any case of attack, unless there is a witness, it can be seen as one person’s word against the other. I don't see this as a religious issue, though. This is an issue with humanity sometimes doing horrible things. Laws not to attack people are in place, and yet your attackers chose to ignore them. Your attackers may have ignored them whether they were religious laws or civil laws. Clearly, your attackers were not raised to abide by laws and respect others.

I'm very sorry that you didn't get the justice that you deserved. Sad

(07-09-2016 01:18 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  3. Having to have the rule clarified is just an example of poor management, and poor planing. Should a divine being intended for rules to be carried out it would be for clear. Not tied up depending on metaphor. The negative effects can be seen when things aren't clear with groups like ISIS.

Or Bible literalist.

Judaism does not believe that G-d is managing us. In fact, Judaism teaches that G-d lets us fall flat on our faces (every single time) before any intervention will come. That's apparently a distinction between Christianity (where I assume you drew your conclusion from) and Judaism. We believe it’s up to us to follow laws, form laws, refine laws, and be respectful to others so we can live in an ordered, peaceful society. I think that’s what every rational person wants whether they believe in G-d or not.

Judaism teaches that if everyone follows the laws, then you live in a good world. If people break the laws, then we run the risk of living in a bad world. It doesn't say anything about G-d cleaning up our messes or being responsible for giving us a system that we cannot break.

I was simply using my personal story as a reference for my complaint that the law weighed against the woman. Inescapable scenarios that occur.

So God in Judaism is more of the great watch maker. Wind the world up and let's see what happens.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't the Torah suppose to be Gods own hand then given to Moses? I also recall hearing that it was suppose to be alive or something like that.

I know, you know the 613 Commandments. And even joked about what a hard sell it would be.

(13-05-2016 03:26 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Oh good. You got all 613 commandments listed. Now I hope you all know why we don't proselytize and we don't want you to convert to Judaism. Can you image trying to sell a list like that to anyone? Laugh out load

From what I understand in Israel depending on the neighbor hood working on the Sabbath could mean turn on a light switch would codon you to death. Is that a life someone should live?

My ignorance of the Jewish faith is pretty abundant. The vast majority of what i've learn i've learn from your posts and TV.

Early in my life when I was Catholic. We we're often reminded that it was their fault Jesus died.

Which I often had a tuff time understanding at the time because to me it seemed like a sweet deal for Jesus. He gets a second life and gets god powers.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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07-09-2016, 07:03 PM
RE: Help Needed for debate!
(07-09-2016 03:30 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  
(07-09-2016 02:06 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Torah does not cover every single possible situation that can conceivably be played out by humanity, nor does it claim to. It’s designed to provide the Jewish people with a basic set of principles for right and wrong. We must take those principles and apply them to different situations as needed. All Torah is doing here is defining that rape is wrong, and it's making the distinction between actual rape and consensual sex. In the event that the woman has multiple attackers, the Torah tells the Jewish people to rely on a court to decide how best to apply the law.


I’m so sorry! That sounds really horrible. It’s true that in any case of attack, unless there is a witness, it can be seen as one person’s word against the other. I don't see this as a religious issue, though. This is an issue with humanity sometimes doing horrible things. Laws not to attack people are in place, and yet your attackers chose to ignore them. Your attackers may have ignored them whether they were religious laws or civil laws. Clearly, your attackers were not raised to abide by laws and respect others.

I'm very sorry that you didn't get the justice that you deserved. Sad


Judaism does not believe that G-d is managing us. In fact, Judaism teaches that G-d lets us fall flat on our faces (every single time) before any intervention will come. That's apparently a distinction between Christianity (where I assume you drew your conclusion from) and Judaism. We believe it’s up to us to follow laws, form laws, refine laws, and be respectful to others so we can live in an ordered, peaceful society. I think that’s what every rational person wants whether they believe in G-d or not.

Judaism teaches that if everyone follows the laws, then you live in a good world. If people break the laws, then we run the risk of living in a bad world. It doesn't say anything about G-d cleaning up our messes or being responsible for giving us a system that we cannot break.

I was simply using my personal story as a reference for my complaint that the law weighed against the woman. Inescapable scenarios that occur.

So God in Judaism is more of the great watch maker. Wind the world up and let's see what happens.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't the Torah suppose to be Gods own hand then given to Moses? I also recall hearing that it was suppose to be alive or something like that.

I know, you know the 613 Commandments. And even joked about what a hard sell it would be.
Judaism teaches that the goal is for the Jewish people to become less and less dependent on G-d to intervene. It’s kind of like a kid growing up… their dependence on their parents should decrease over time. The objective is independence, not relying on G-d to bail you out.

Yeah, you might say that G-d is like a watchmaker. He winds up the world and lets it go. It’s really up to us to make our lives great.

(07-09-2016 03:30 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  
(13-05-2016 03:26 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Oh good. You got all 613 commandments listed. Now I hope you all know why we don't proselytize and we don't want you to convert to Judaism. Can you image trying to sell a list like that to anyone? Laugh out load

From what I understand in Israel depending on the neighbor hood working on the Sabbath could mean turn on a light switch would codon you to death. Is that a life someone should live?

My ignorance of the Jewish faith is pretty abundant. The vast majority of what i've learn i've learn from your posts and TV.

Early in my life when I was Catholic. We we're often reminded that it was their fault Jesus died.

Which I often had a tuff time understanding at the time because to me it seemed like a sweet deal for Jesus. He gets a second life and gets god powers.

This isn’t just in Israeli neighborhoods. It’s in all orthodox neighborhoods across the globe. The only thing you have wrong is the death part. It’s considered improper for a Jew to flip a light on Shabbos, but nothing happens to you if you do. Nothing happens literally, nothing happens spiritually. No one is empowered to put you to death for this, and they never will be. No one is even fighting for this. No one anywhere believes that Jews should die for flipping lights on Shabbos.

Jews don’t think Shabbos laws should be practiced by non-Jews, so if you don’t think this is the lifestyle for you, then you shouldn’t try living like that. Nothing will happen if you do, and nothing will happen if you don’t.
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08-09-2016, 09:36 AM
RE: Help Needed for debate!
(07-09-2016 07:03 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(07-09-2016 03:30 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  I was simply using my personal story as a reference for my complaint that the law weighed against the woman. Inescapable scenarios that occur.

So God in Judaism is more of the great watch maker. Wind the world up and let's see what happens.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't the Torah suppose to be Gods own hand then given to Moses? I also recall hearing that it was suppose to be alive or something like that.

I know, you know the 613 Commandments. And even joked about what a hard sell it would be.
Judaism teaches that the goal is for the Jewish people to become less and less dependent on G-d to intervene. It’s kind of like a kid growing up… their dependence on their parents should decrease over time. The objective is independence, not relying on G-d to bail you out.

Yeah, you might say that G-d is like a watchmaker. He winds up the world and lets it go. It’s really up to us to make our lives great.

(07-09-2016 03:30 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  From what I understand in Israel depending on the neighbor hood working on the Sabbath could mean turn on a light switch would codon you to death. Is that a life someone should live?

My ignorance of the Jewish faith is pretty abundant. The vast majority of what i've learn i've learn from your posts and TV.

Early in my life when I was Catholic. We we're often reminded that it was their fault Jesus died.

Which I often had a tuff time understanding at the time because to me it seemed like a sweet deal for Jesus. He gets a second life and gets god powers.

This isn’t just in Israeli neighborhoods. It’s in all orthodox neighborhoods across the globe. The only thing you have wrong is the death part. It’s considered improper for a Jew to flip a light on Shabbos, but nothing happens to you if you do. Nothing happens literally, nothing happens spiritually. No one is empowered to put you to death for this, and they never will be. No one is even fighting for this. No one anywhere believes that Jews should die for flipping lights on Shabbos.

Jews don’t think Shabbos laws should be practiced by non-Jews, so if you don’t think this is the lifestyle for you, then you shouldn’t try living like that. Nothing will happen if you do, and nothing will happen if you don’t.

I appreciate your responses. There is no real polite way of questioning peoples beliefs. My goal isn't to offend, just to expand my understanding.

The light switch flip reminds me of my Catholic days. During Lent we weren't allowed to eat beef, or chicken. But had to eat fish on Fridays. Unless you forgot. I can't remember how many times I broke that rule. Yet no repercussions ever occurred.

The Jewish idea of god seems very different then the one that was presented to me in my younger years. The Catholic god had everything planed out, should you ruin his plan and you didn't suffer emediate repercussions you would in the after life. You could get forgiven so long as you confessed you sins to Jesus threw his "secretary's" the priests.

Why do Jews not think the laws are for people outside the faith?

If these rules are more like guide lines. And the end result for breaking on of these guide lines is often nothing. Why have the guide lines to start with? I believe I understand when you said to remove reliance on G-d. But many of those commandments don't really sound like they would apply threw the ages. Such as boiling a baby goat in it mothers milk.

Also I am in the understanding the Torah has much more body and possibly context then the Old Testament included in the Bible simply for the case that the OT is the edited version of the Five Books of Moses. Then later had the expanded universe slapped on with the new testament. So what I ask will mostly be based upon what I know of the OT.

Doesn't god interact in the that story? He talks with Adam & Eve. He wrestles Jacob. He tells Noah he's going to flood the world, he tells Moses his rules (or at least the first 10) He tell Joshua he had to walk in circles. It sounds like he's interacting quiet a bit. And gets really upset most of the time. And not with "OK let me explain why this is wrong." or "OK you guys get a time out." But with mass genocide.

G-d in the OT is more like a spoiled teenager more then a goal to reach.

Aren't there there different categorizes of Jews such as Cultural Jews, Religious Jews, and Ethnic Jews. If a person is an Ethnic Jew are they expected to follow this rules? If not and being outside the Jewish Religion is much more lax, then what keeps people from leaving? Tradition?

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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08-09-2016, 12:00 PM
RE: Help Needed for debate!
(08-09-2016 09:36 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  
(07-09-2016 07:03 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Judaism teaches that the goal is for the Jewish people to become less and less dependent on G-d to intervene. It’s kind of like a kid growing up… their dependence on their parents should decrease over time. The objective is independence, not relying on G-d to bail you out.

Yeah, you might say that G-d is like a watchmaker. He winds up the world and lets it go. It’s really up to us to make our lives great.

This isn’t just in Israeli neighborhoods. It’s in all orthodox neighborhoods across the globe. The only thing you have wrong is the death part. It’s considered improper for a Jew to flip a light on Shabbos, but nothing happens to you if you do. Nothing happens literally, nothing happens spiritually. No one is empowered to put you to death for this, and they never will be. No one is even fighting for this. No one anywhere believes that Jews should die for flipping lights on Shabbos.

Jews don’t think Shabbos laws should be practiced by non-Jews, so if you don’t think this is the lifestyle for you, then you shouldn’t try living like that. Nothing will happen if you do, and nothing will happen if you don’t.

I appreciate your responses. There is no real polite way of questioning peoples beliefs. My goal isn't to offend, just to expand my understanding.

You’re welcome to ask away. I try to make a point not to offer too much unsolicited information (sometimes I break my own rule), but I’m more than happy to respond to questions. The goal for me would of course be to inform, not to convince.

(08-09-2016 09:36 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Why do Jews not think the laws are for people outside the faith?

Jews believe that Judaism is the right way of life for the Jewish people, and that there are other ways of life that are better suited for different cultures and their needs. Judaism simply teaches that there are many right ways to live one’s life.

(08-09-2016 09:36 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  If these rules are more like guide lines. And the end result for breaking on of these guide lines is often nothing. Why have the guide lines to start with? I believe I understand when you said to remove reliance on G-d. But many of those commandments don't really sound like they would apply threw the ages. Such as boiling a baby goat in it mothers milk.

The end result is not nothing. It’s just that it’s not imminent danger to the individual that breaks it. Nothing happens when you flip a light on Shabbos, but if you flip lights, then you might start doing other things, and that might lead you to have less respect for Shabbos… and then you might start dropping laws left and right… and then the Jewish people fall apart and assimilate into nothingness.

As for boiling a kid in its mother’s milk, we still maintain this today. The function for this rule isn’t directly specified, but it’s believed that the purpose is to separate the Jews from everyone else so we can maintain our cultural identity.

The word “milk” and “fat” in Hebrew is the same word with a different pronunciation (Like Polish and polish. You need context to understand which one is being used). The Talmud says that Moses asked G-d which word it was, milk or fat, and G-d replied “You decide what you want it to be.” This parable tells us that the root of the rules have nothing to do with some health concern over milk or fat, or some spiritual interference that you’re introducing through mixing milk or fat, because then obviously they'd both be forbidden. It has to do with keeping the Jewish people as a distinct, separate society with different cultural rules than everyone else. To this end, the Jewish people have effectively remained a distinct culture even through +2,000 years of diaspora. The rule (and others like it) did produce the desired outcome.

(08-09-2016 09:36 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Also I am in the understanding the Torah has much more body and possibly context then the Old Testament included in the Bible simply for the case that the OT is the edited version of the Five Books of Moses. Then later had the expanded universe slapped on with the new testament. So what I ask will mostly be based upon what I know of the OT.

Doesn't god interact in the that story? He talks with Adam & Eve. He wrestles Jacob. He tells Noah he's going to flood the world, he tells Moses his rules (or at least the first 10) He tell Joshua he had to walk in circles. It sounds like he's interacting quiet a bit. And gets really upset most of the time. And not with "OK let me explain why this is wrong." or "OK you guys get a time out." But with mass genocide.

G-d in the OT is more like a spoiled teenager more then a goal to reach.

I can see why people coming from Christian backgrounds view my book the way that they do. They’re only reading ½ the book! Stories are split up and detailed in the Talmud, and if you want the full picture, you need to study the Talmud. To the Jewish way of thinking, it’s an equal partner in the stories and gives the background and justification for many of the stories in the bible.

G-d in the Hebrew bible does interfere a lot. But as you read through the bible, you should notice a diminishing presence. G-d goes from being very involved, to only watching from a far and giving little cues, to then being totally in the background. In the story of Esther, G-d is not mentioned even once, and the idea is that Esther used the resources she had access to solve the problem of impending genocide. It’s believed that G-d’s role was to just put her in the right place at the right time. Everything else was on Esther.

Judaism can be summed up through the story of Queen Esther. This is how Jews regard G-d and G-d’s role in humanity today.

(08-09-2016 09:36 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Aren't there there different categorizes of Jews such as Cultural Jews, Religious Jews, and Ethnic Jews. If a person is an Ethnic Jew are they expected to follow this rules? If not and being outside the Jewish Religion is much more lax, then what keeps people from leaving? Tradition?

There are most definitely different categories of Jews, but unlike with Christians, we believe that you’re a Jew regardless of your status as an atheist or a theist, or how much you follow Torah or rabbinic law.

The rules are only the rules if you’re in a group of people who maintains the rules. Reform Jews have different rules than Orthodox Jews. They’re both right if they’re maintaining a community and acting as a group. Unlike Christianity where the objective is to worship Jesus, Jews place emphasis on living a pleasurable life and maintaining a Jewish community.

Tradition is not really what keeps people Jewish, though it is a selling point. It’s true we do like our latkes and gefilte fish. We like being Jewish because we like our culture. We like our values and our moral code, and many Jews just feel “at home” in a Jewish setting. Maybe there’s even a little cultural arrogance pride that keeps us from straying to other cultures.
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