Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
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28-09-2015, 06:45 PM
Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
I don't know if you all are aware but the courts are constantly mandating folk to religious 12 step groups. It is a real problem, on top of that well meaning doctors of all sorts recommend these "programs" without fully being aware of what they really are.

More states do recognise these groups as "Religious" in nature. But still this is going on. Also various unions mandate these religious groups as a requirement to maintain a licence for even a minor infraction.

It stinks. Here is a petition to help bring some awareness to government and medicine, sign it if you are inspired to do so {I hope this is appropriate to post}

http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/health-...y=12939121

And otherwise I would just like to know how others feel about these groups.
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29-09-2015, 06:20 PM (This post was last modified: 29-09-2015 06:33 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
"Taken as a whole, the data suggest that AA may be helpful, especially in conjunction with professional treatment, for many people who are addicted to alcohol. We do not know, however, whether AA might occasionally be harmful. When a group is highly confrontational, for example, alcoholics may become resistant to change [see “The Advice Trap,” by Hal Arkowitz and Scott O. Lilienfeld; Scientific American Mind, September/October 2010]. Nevertheless, in light of the evidence supporting the program, the wide availability of meetings and the lack of expense, AA is worth considering for many problem drinkers."

There are atheists which AA worked for them. They typically identify thier higher power as the group. Or themselves. Blush Problem I have with them and the US treatment of the disease in general is that they believe an alcoholic can never drink again. Complete lifelong abstinence. Europeans realize this is unrealistic and ask "What do we need to do to return them to normal moderate drinking?" ... Baclofen?

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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29-09-2015, 08:46 PM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(29-09-2015 06:20 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  "Taken as a whole, the data suggest that AA may be helpful, especially in conjunction with professional treatment, for many people who are addicted to alcohol. We do not know, however, whether AA might occasionally be harmful. When a group is highly confrontational, for example, alcoholics may become resistant to change [see “The Advice Trap,” by Hal Arkowitz and Scott O. Lilienfeld; Scientific American Mind, September/October 2010]. Nevertheless, in light of the evidence supporting the program, the wide availability of meetings and the lack of expense, AA is worth considering for many problem drinkers."

There are atheists which AA worked for them. They typically identify thier higher power as the group. Or themselves. Blush Problem I have with them and the US treatment of the disease in general is that they believe an alcoholic can never drink again. Complete lifelong abstinence. Europeans realize this is unrealistic and ask "What do we need to do to return them to normal moderate drinking?" ... Baclofen?

That is exactly what I am saying. Insofar as what was in your reply. I do not know if you have personal experience, but go and try to go to an AA meeting and claim yourself as your own higher power. Also later day 12 step groups will state in their literature that that is one thing it cannot be.

The real problem is the amount of contentious drama one is sending another into if they blindly recommend AA to an atheist. And frankly it is due to AA that other groups that do do what it is you mentioned cannot get a leg up. And there are several. I belong to the only one that attempts to do what you mentioned in the last sentence of your post.

and the petition is about mandating people to attend Via the courts. Which to me is sentencing people to church. And that is just not right.
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30-09-2015, 07:18 PM (This post was last modified: 30-09-2015 07:24 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(29-09-2015 08:46 PM)oddnes Wrote:  
(29-09-2015 06:20 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  There are atheists which AA worked for them. They typically identify thier higher power as the group. Or themselves.

That is exactly what I am saying. Insofar as what was in your reply. I do not know if you have personal experience, but go and try to go to an AA meeting and claim yourself as your own higher power. Also later day 12 step groups will state in their literature that that is one thing it cannot be.

I do not have any experiences with AA but my atheist alcoholic brothers do. What would AA say to me when I say I believe that "I" am the greater power than myself that can restore me to sanity? Kick me out? Write me off as batshit bonkers?

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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01-10-2015, 09:12 AM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(30-09-2015 07:18 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(29-09-2015 08:46 PM)oddnes Wrote:  That is exactly what I am saying. Insofar as what was in your reply. I do not know if you have personal experience, but go and try to go to an AA meeting and claim yourself as your own higher power. Also later day 12 step groups will state in their literature that that is one thing it cannot be.

I do not have any experiences with AA but my atheist alcoholic brothers do. What would AA say to me when I say I believe that "I" am the greater power than myself that can restore me to sanity? Kick me out? Write me off as batshit bonkers?

Be clear what AA is, they actually cannot really kick you out per se. But the cultist members would begin to slander you behind your back, and others would likely start working on you. They may shun you, to your face.

The greater point though that I started this with is the sentencing of people to 12 step groups by the state. So the state is sending people there to pray in a circle, and work a program that offers nothing more than religiosity and faith healing.

The reality is that the individual would be way better off being their own Higher Power, taking the reigns back in their lives and dealing with their issues. Few drink to a damaging level for love of alcohol. The vast majority of people are engaging in self destructive behaviour due to varied other underlying issues.

AA misguides so many to focusing on the scapegoat alcohol, and really retards their ability/desire to seek real help for their problems.
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01-10-2015, 09:27 AM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
I never understood why the courts would mandate a conventional 12-step program for minor offences. It makes much more sense to me that they mandate participation in a program of the offenders choosing from a list of court approved programs that includes secular options.

I understand the need to persuade some people to seek help with addiction recovery; but, I do not see a need to arbitrarily choose a program to mandate without regard for the individual's beliefs.
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01-10-2015, 09:33 AM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
Two links for you:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arch...us/386255/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-har...06936.html

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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01-10-2015, 09:42 AM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(01-10-2015 09:33 AM)morondog Wrote:  Two links for you:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arch...us/386255/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-har...06936.html

The "rat park" study is new to me. That's an interesting finding Consider
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01-10-2015, 10:54 AM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(28-09-2015 06:45 PM)oddnes Wrote:  I don't know if you all are aware but the courts are constantly mandating folk to religious 12 step groups.

I 'm not sure it's the courts doing it. It appears the courts have already ruled it is unconstitutional. It looks like parole officers are doing it as a condition of parole.

http://nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu/does-ma...amendment/

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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01-10-2015, 05:06 PM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(01-10-2015 09:27 AM)mediocrates Wrote:  I never understood why the courts would mandate a conventional 12-step program for minor offences. It makes much more sense to me that they mandate participation in a program of the offenders choosing from a list of court approved programs that includes secular options.

I understand the need to persuade some people to seek help with addiction recovery; but, I do not see a need to arbitrarily choose a program to mandate without regard for the individual's beliefs.

I agree, and in some circumstances a informational program similar to traffic school may be more in order. Particularly for those who are young or who may have had a first DUI.

People are stupid about alcohol {And pot as well}, as far as the real effects. Part of that stupidity is due to poor education. For instance you are impaired by drinking long before you are aware of it. But I hear so commonly said by people that they thought it was safe to drive if you only had two drinks..... particularly from those who just got their first DUI...lol.

But there is a lot more to it, and that knowledge is available, particularly from those who have a harm reduction approach to the issue. But this approach is scorned not only by 12 step faith healing groups, but most all of the other alternatives.
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