Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
02-10-2015, 11:05 AM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(01-10-2015 06:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 09:12 AM)oddnes Wrote:  Be clear what AA is, they actually cannot really kick you out per se. But the cultist members would begin to slander you behind your back, and others would likely start working on you. They may shun you, to your face.

The greater point though that I started this with is the sentencing of people to 12 step groups by the state. So the state is sending people there to pray in a circle, and work a program that offers nothing more than religiosity and faith healing.

Really? Consider How about peer support, friendship, acceptance, honesty, and understanding? Facepalm

Quote:The reality is that the individual would be way better off being their own Higher Power, taking the reigns back in their lives and dealing with their issues. Few drink to a damaging level for love of alcohol. The vast majority of people are engaging in self destructive behaviour due to varied other underlying issues.

You really shouldn't pontificate out of ignorance. It's called addiction, and it isn't a choice to be an addict.

Quote:AA misguides so many to focusing on the scapegoat alcohol, and really retards their ability/desire to seek real help for their problems.

See comment above. That is not what AA does; the focus is on personal behavior and taking responsibility.

The focus of AA is on god. It is called "Addiction" that is the problem, the whole false disease model of addiction. There is more going on in the so called 'Addicts" life. Alcohol/drug abuse is largely a choice, the person may not like to see it so, but they make the choice every time they use.

"Personal behaviour and taking responsibility", statement of yours I largely agree with. Yet still in reality, many scapegoat the alcohol as the source of so much of the horrible stuff that they did.

"You really shouldn't pontificate out of ignorance." I do not know if this statement makes you feel smart, yet I would posit that it is a rather rude way to put it, and perhaps you could supply evidence to the contrary that even a small number of so called "addicts" do not have other issues that influence the level of their consumption.

And come on! Have you never heard of dual diagnosis? It is the usual diagnosis these days for those who actually have a diagnosis from a trained professional. And most 12 steppers are self-diagnosed, or diagnosed by a non-professional.

And in the end I do not care, you may be a AA religious member. But frankly the issue is clearing the way for secular and science based substance abuse treatment. Not based on sky daddies or faith healing.

And to go back to your first comment about: "How about peer support, friendship, acceptance, honesty, and understanding? Facepalm"

That only applies as long as you support the religious ideas of the cult. Like any other Cult/Church If you deny basic tenants of the group, you will find yourself on the outside. Go read tradition 3 in the 12x12 and tell me otherwise. Sorry if they got their hooks in you, but it is simply a religion in denial.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-10-2015, 12:29 PM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(01-10-2015 08:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  I'm pretty sure that I could do controlled drinking for a while, maybe even a long while.
But I wouldn't want to - the control would ruin the drinking. It did before.

Now that is an excellent point. I know exactly what you mean.

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-10-2015, 12:38 PM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(02-10-2015 11:05 AM)oddnes Wrote:  "You really shouldn't pontificate out of ignorance." I do not know if this statement makes you feel smart, yet I would posit that it is a rather rude way to put it, and perhaps you could supply evidence to the contrary that even a small number of so called "addicts" do not have other issues that influence the level of their consumption.

There are many many people like my wife who are "addicted" to opioids as a result of chronic pain. Probably a lot more than "street junkies". My wife had her back surgery and now they are weaning her off the shitload of painkillers she was on very slowly.

oddnes, are you a member of the same club Chas and I find ourselves?

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-10-2015, 02:30 PM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
The courts are trying to do something at least.
AA and other similar 12 step groups are non-profit organizations for the most part. Meetings are free and widespread.
I'm sure the courts would be happy to give a choice of other types of treatment if they could meet these criteria.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-10-2015, 02:56 PM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(02-10-2015 11:05 AM)oddnes Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 06:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  Really? Consider How about peer support, friendship, acceptance, honesty, and understanding? Facepalm


You really shouldn't pontificate out of ignorance. It's called addiction, and it isn't a choice to be an addict.


See comment above. That is not what AA does; the focus is on personal behavior and taking responsibility.

The focus of AA is on god. It is called "Addiction" that is the problem, the whole false disease model of addiction. There is more going on in the so called 'Addicts" life. Alcohol/drug abuse is largely a choice, the person may not like to see it so, but they make the choice every time they use.

You make gross generalizations about AA. Every group is different as there is no governing body to enforce orthodoxy.

You don't believe that addiction is real?

Quote:"Personal behaviour and taking responsibility", statement of yours I largely agree with. Yet still in reality, many scapegoat the alcohol as the source of so much of the horrible stuff that they did.

No, they don't scapegoat alcohol (or drugs), they describe and contrast their behaviors with and without the substances.

Quote:"You really shouldn't pontificate out of ignorance." I do not know if this statement makes you feel smart, yet I would posit that it is a rather rude way to put it, and perhaps you could supply evidence to the contrary that even a small number of so called "addicts" do not have other issues that influence the level of their consumption.

No, that statement asserts that I know a lot more about AA and addiction than you.

How did this 'issues' red herring get in here? Consider

Quote:And come on! Have you never heard of dual diagnosis? It is the usual diagnosis these days for those who actually have a diagnosis from a trained professional. And most 12 steppers are self-diagnosed, or diagnosed by a non-professional.

Citations will be required for that.

Quote:And in the end I do not care, you may be a AA religious member. But frankly the issue is clearing the way for secular and science based substance abuse treatment. Not based on sky daddies or faith healing.

The court should order people to in-patient medical treatment, not AA.

Quote:And to go back to your first comment about: "How about peer support, friendship, acceptance, honesty, and understanding? Facepalm"

That only applies as long as you support the religious ideas of the cult.

You just made that up, didn't you. Consider

Quote:Like any other Cult/Church If you deny basic tenants tenets of the group, you will find yourself on the outside. Go read tradition 3 in the 12x12 and tell me otherwise. Sorry if they got their hooks in you, but it is simply a religion in denial.

Sorry that your knowledge of AA is so narrow and parochial.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-10-2015, 11:56 PM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
Chas, did your AA group do medals and higher power and stuff like that? 12 step program with the Big Book as described in the article I linked to earlier?

Link

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-10-2015, 11:33 AM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(03-10-2015 11:56 PM)morondog Wrote:  Chas, did your AA group do medals and higher power and stuff like that? 12 step program with the Big Book as described in the article I linked to earlier?

Link

Some meetings I went did that stuff, some didn't.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-10-2015, 04:48 PM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(03-10-2015 12:38 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(02-10-2015 11:05 AM)oddnes Wrote:  "You really shouldn't pontificate out of ignorance." I do not know if this statement makes you feel smart, yet I would posit that it is a rather rude way to put it, and perhaps you could supply evidence to the contrary that even a small number of so called "addicts" do not have other issues that influence the level of their consumption.

There are many many people like my wife who are "addicted" to opioids as a result of chronic pain. Probably a lot more than "street junkies". My wife had her back surgery and now they are weaning her off the shitload of painkillers she was on very slowly.

oddnes, are you a member of the same club Chas and I find ourselves?

That is true in regards to your wives addiction. However, in my experience anyone who uses often enough {alcohol/drugs/Gambling/etc.} will find difficulty suddenly changing the behaviour, but this does not denote a life long illness. A disease. For it is just normal.

Which is further a problem with the 12 step religion, you step in there, pick up a book, and soon they are telling you you are a liar and a cheat, and a person of defective character. It is a fatalistic religion. But none of that is true, and there are many better ways to deal with the temporary problem of acute withdraw. 12 step rallies against many of these scientifically based treatment models.

For instance NA has literature that notes that anyone taking medication specifically for withdraw is not a fully fledged member. Not to mention the numerous pressures from within the group to conform to their one size fits all treatment, "and that one is god. May you find him now." {That is actually a quote from AA}. Like it or not.

And further many who solve their problem with drink or drug do not fully abstain for the rest of their lives. It is a very puritanical position to demand they do so. Also some claim a lot of time when they have really slipped. but they would loose status in the religion due to their loss of time. I have a couple of friends who committed suicide due to this kind of phenomena.

If you have 20 years of honest sobriety, drink one beer, and go right back, you have lost all status. But of course this is just foolishness.

And "oddnes, are you a member of the same club Chas and I find ourselves?"
I have no idea what you mean.

But I will say that I resisted religion right out the gate in life. But 12 step was a religion that seduced me and did unspeakable harm it has taken years to correct.

And 20 years after induction, I have found all of its claims to be every bit as false as those of any other religion.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-10-2015, 05:07 PM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2015 05:11 PM by oddnes.)
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
to chaz Re: your last post.

Reading all of your arguments it is clear you are merely a 12 step apologist. Arguing with you would be no different than trying to debate a devote fundie Christian, So I will not go point by point, but I think I did the respect of reading it all.

Is it wrong to have a negative view of the over all destructive effect of Christianity due to the fact that there are probably as many varieties as there are meetings of AA? Or Islam, or Hinduism, or Buddhism for that matter?

The claim that there all meetings are different {and innocent} is simply twisting the truth. They may have differences, but they also have a lot of the same. I know this as I deal with people who have left AA from every corner of the earth on a daily basis..... And we all went to the same meetings.

You may not be aware but all of your arguments are "programmed". They are canned 12 step apologist responses influenced by groupthink. I know I deal with a lot of people who have left and they go through a process of de-constructing everything that you argue.

The way we do this is following examples from those who have left cults, as the symptoms are identical {A good indicator of what 12 step is}. And in the end most find out yes.... There is no disease called "alcoholism". As we are certainly no longer alcoholic. It is long left over pop psyche started by a group called AA.

The cure for Alcoholism/Addiction seems to be rejecting the tenets of AA and all of its offshoots.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-10-2015, 05:43 PM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(04-10-2015 05:07 PM)oddnes Wrote:  to chaz Re: your last post.

Reading all of your arguments it is clear you are merely a 12 step apologist. Arguing with you would be no different than trying to debate a devote fundie Christian, So I will not go point by point, but I think I did the respect of reading it all.

Oh, bullshit. None of what I have said is in defense of AA, it is all correcting your limited view of it. Your experience with AA is not everyone's experience of AA.

Quote:Is it wrong to have a negative view of the over all destructive effect of Christianity due to the fact that there are probably as many varieties as there are meetings of AA? Or Islam, or Hinduism, or Buddhism for that matter?

If your only experience is with one sect, then your criticisms do not necessarily apply to any other sects.

Quote:The claim that there all meetings are different {and innocent} is simply twisting the truth. They may have differences, but they also have a lot of the same. I know this as I deal with people who have left AA from every corner of the earth on a daily basis..... And we all went to the same meetings.

Please quote me where I said any meetings are 'innocent'.

I seriously doubt that people from all corners of the earth went to the same meetings. Facepalm

Quote:You may not be aware but all of your arguments are "programmed".

Oh, fuck off. Your presumption is arrogant and insulting.

Quote:They are canned 12 step apologist responses influenced by groupthink. I know I deal with a lot of people who have left and they go through a process of de-constructing everything that you argue.

I am not arguing anything besides what I have experienced. There are meetings/groups as you describe and there are meetings/groups that are nothing like that - and everything in between.

Quote:The way we do this is following examples from those who have left cults, as the symptoms are identical {A good indicator of what 12 step is}.

Once again, that is not everyone. I do not make any claims about the relative effectiveness of AA and I agree that courts should not be ordering people to attend meetings.

Quote:And in the end most find out yes.... There is no disease called "alcoholism". As we are certainly no longer alcoholic. It is long left over pop psyche started by a group called AA.

Most? You'll need to provide a citation for that. Are you now a social drinker?

Alcoholism is a mental disorder and a physical dependence - in other words, an addiction.
Your view is at odds with the AMA, the CDC, the Mayo Clinic

Quote:The cure for Alcoholism/Addiction seems to be rejecting the tenets of AA and all of its offshoots.

Not for everyone.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: