Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
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01-02-2016, 12:35 PM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
right chas,

And my experience with the Mormon cult was a lot different than a lot of people too...... Frankly my experience with 12 step is far more common than not, and your attacks are not really that wonderful, particularly on a site like this when it is a religious group that harmed me {And countless others} that you are defending.
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01-02-2016, 09:09 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2016 10:45 PM by Chas.)
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(01-02-2016 12:35 PM)oddnes Wrote:  right chas,

And my experience with the Mormon cult was a lot different than a lot of people too......

So? What has that to do with you assuming that your experience of AA is everyone's experience of AA?

Quote:Frankly my experience with 12 step is far more common than not,

Citation required.

Quote:and your attacks are not really that wonderful,

What attacks?

Quote:particularly on a site like this when it is a religious group that harmed me {And countless others} that you are defending.

I am defending the actual facts from your narrow, limited experience and emotional reactions.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-02-2016, 02:06 AM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2016 02:13 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
As an atheist who has recently started attending AA meetings (voluntary, no legal requirement involved), who has sampled three different groups looking for one which fits me best, I've found that the emphasis on religion varies (even here in Texas), and when I mentioned my lack of belief in each one, I faced no poor-treatment, and indeed was told by several members and by a couple of online friends I'd asked before entering that I should "take what works for me". (I don't know how I might end up defining my HP, nor do I know if I will use each of the 12 steps to break my alcoholism -- some are great, some seem bunk to me; there are several different approaches to sobriety and recovery besides AA, and I think there are good and bad to all of them. I will continue to go to AA meetings, because the support provided by people who have btdt is powerful, to me).

The steps themselves are not about promulgating this or that particular view of alcohol addiction, and one can take the "disease" model or not and still make the steps work; because from my perspective, they are much more about addressing the personal failings which lead into addiction. This is why there is a distinction between sobriety and recovery. The first is about breaking the physical addiction. The latter is about addressing the personal issues which lead the addict to view intoxication as an appropriate way to address reality. I don't need to accept this or that model of alcoholism in order to address the personal issues which have led me to where I am today, in order to break my addiction.

That said, I am very much against court-mandated AA attendance, because the theistic references in the Big Book are clear (even with the caveat "as you understand him" added to all God references) ... it seems to me that the overwhelming majority of folks will import their socio-culturally inculcated understandings of god(s).
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02-02-2016, 06:13 AM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(02-02-2016 02:06 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  As an atheist who has recently started attending AA meetings (voluntary, no legal requirement involved), who has sampled three different groups looking for one which fits me best, I've found that the emphasis on religion varies (even here in Texas), and when I mentioned my lack of belief in each one, I faced no poor-treatment, and indeed was told by several members and by a couple of online friends I'd asked before entering that I should "take what works for me". (I don't know how I might end up defining my HP, nor do I know if I will use each of the 12 steps to break my alcoholism -- some are great, some seem bunk to me; there are several different approaches to sobriety and recovery besides AA, and I think there are good and bad to all of them. I will continue to go to AA meetings, because the support provided by people who have btdt is powerful, to me).

The steps themselves are not about promulgating this or that particular view of alcohol addiction, and one can take the "disease" model or not and still make the steps work; because from my perspective, they are much more about addressing the personal failings which lead into addiction. This is why there is a distinction between sobriety and recovery. The first is about breaking the physical addiction. The latter is about addressing the personal issues which lead the addict to view intoxication as an appropriate way to address reality. I don't need to accept this or that model of alcoholism in order to address the personal issues which have led me to where I am today, in order to break my addiction.

That said, I am very much against court-mandated AA attendance, because the theistic references in the Big Book are clear (even with the caveat "as you understand him" added to all God references) ... it seems to me that the overwhelming majority of folks will import their socio-culturally inculcated understandings of god(s).

Well said. Thumbsup

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02-02-2016, 06:24 AM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
On the idea of "Higher Powers" ----

It's amusing to note that "Higher Powers" are believed in - by a bunch of drunks.....

...
Make of that, what you will..

Big Grin

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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03-02-2016, 12:33 AM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(02-02-2016 06:24 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  On the idea of "Higher Powers" ----

It's amusing to note that "Higher Powers" are believed in - by a bunch of drunks.....

...
Make of that, what you will..

Big Grin

As low as drink can bring a man, just about any power is "Higher".
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03-02-2016, 02:29 AM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
I quit drugs and alcohol 37 years ago through AA. I wound up in a group that was almost 100% atheists. Being with those people reminds me who I am and that helps keep me clean and sober. Those atheists end their meetings with the Lord's Prayer and I participate. It hasn't hurt me one damned bit.
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03-02-2016, 02:40 AM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(03-02-2016 02:29 AM)Black Eagle Wrote:  I quit drugs and alcohol 37 years ago through AA. I wound up in a group that was almost 100% atheists. Being with those people reminds me who I am and that helps keep me clean and sober. Those atheists end their meetings with the Lord's Prayer and I participate. It hasn't hurt me one damned bit.

You didn't catch fire?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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03-02-2016, 07:19 AM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(03-02-2016 02:29 AM)Black Eagle Wrote:  I quit drugs and alcohol 37 years ago through AA. I wound up in a group that was almost 100% atheists. Being with those people reminds me who I am and that helps keep me clean and sober. Those atheists end their meetings with the Lord's Prayer and I participate. It hasn't hurt me one damned bit.

You must do well in Vegas....

I can't imagine what the odds of finding an atheist AA group would be -- but if you can find one --- can I ask you to give me some numbers for the lottery???

Big Grin

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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03-02-2016, 07:39 AM
RE: Help keep 12 step religion separate from State...
(03-02-2016 07:19 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(03-02-2016 02:29 AM)Black Eagle Wrote:  I quit drugs and alcohol 37 years ago through AA. I wound up in a group that was almost 100% atheists. Being with those people reminds me who I am and that helps keep me clean and sober. Those atheists end their meetings with the Lord's Prayer and I participate. It hasn't hurt me one damned bit.

You must do well in Vegas....

I can't imagine what the odds of finding an atheist AA group would be -- but if you can find one --- can I ask you to give me some numbers for the lottery???

Big Grin

I've belonged to a couple that were majority atheist. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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