Help me out
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26-12-2011, 11:04 PM
Help me out
I'd appreciate some help, guys. I've got another argument going on in a Catholic forum, and I'd love it if I could get some support. I don't really mind defending my arguments, but as I'm outnumbered it could leave me answering every stupid objection the rest of my life. If you're willing, chip in a little bit.

I thought I'd run my personal strongest argument by the theists there (about John 2 telling the story of Jesus driving out the money-changers from the temple, also mentioned in the other gospels much later in time). Any help, even just a response here for me to use, would be helpful.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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27-12-2011, 03:55 AM
RE: Help me out
It seems like you dug yourself a nice hole. With your approach you have set yourself up as a noisy believer/slight disbeliever, one that asks too many questions about the mysterious ways that God works in. So, as you can see, they started singing "the angry lullaby" hoping that you go back to sleep and make all your lack of faith go away. They are giving you answers, but in an annoyed voice, to make you feel that you are wrong to allow such doubt in your heart. You're going nowhere with this approach because they have a lot more on the shelf. Trying to corner them with chronologies will not work because, as they put it, the gospels are not a journal of Jesus's comings and goings, but merely the things we need to know in order to work for our salvation.

If you shift your tactics and out yourself as "the enemy", depending on the forum's administration integrity, they might ban you. Anyway, you started with an easy one. Unless you plan to go with something heavier, this is about as far as you can progress at this stage.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

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27-12-2011, 08:33 AM
RE: Help me out
(27-12-2011 03:55 AM)Malleus Wrote:  It seems like you dug yourself a nice hole. With your approach you have set yourself up as a noisy believer/slight disbeliever, one that asks too many questions about the mysterious ways that God works in. So, as you can see, they started singing "the angry lullaby" hoping that you go back to sleep and make all your lack of faith go away. They are giving you answers, but in an annoyed voice, to make you feel that you are wrong to allow such doubt in your heart. You're going nowhere with this approach because they have a lot more on the shelf. Trying to corner them with chronologies will not work because, as they put it, the gospels are not a journal of Jesus's comings and goings, but merely the things we need to know in order to work for our salvation.

If you shift your tactics and out yourself as "the enemy", depending on the forum's administration integrity, they might ban you. Anyway, you started with an easy one. Unless you plan to go with something heavier, this is about as far as you can progress at this stage.

I haven't noticed them banning users, but they do have a tendency to close threads. That could very well happen.

Trying to corner theists with anything will not work if you start imagining that you can just walk away from the bible with a fuzzy sense of what really happened. I'm going to try to impress upon them that, even if they don't want to take it literally, several of their fellow Catholics do. It won't ever "work", because no matter what I present, there's no mechanism through words that can counteract denial. But if I didn't think that I could get through to anyone, I wouldn't post on a forum anywhere ever.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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27-12-2011, 09:07 AM
RE: Help me out
(27-12-2011 08:33 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  I haven't noticed them banning users, but they do have a tendency to close threads. That could very well happen.

Trying to corner theists with anything will not work if you start imagining that you can just walk away from the bible with a fuzzy sense of what really happened. I'm going to try to impress upon them that, even if they don't want to take it literally, several of their fellow Catholics do. It won't ever "work", because no matter what I present, there's no mechanism through words that can counteract denial. But if I didn't think that I could get through to anyone, I wouldn't post on a forum anywhere ever.

You're absolutely right. It's better to do something than nothing. If anything you can learn from the debate, no matter if you make a good case or not. You can learn which arguments work and which don't.

I was educated in a religious system very similar to Catholicism and we shared a great chunk of apologetics. Looking at where you are now in that debate and getting an idea about what they are most likely to answer, you could maybe get them to say that the synoptics say pretty much the same thing and it doesn't matter much in what order they are saying it. From there you can advance to contradictions and try your hand with that, but sticking with chronology will not get you very far.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

I would never shake a baby unless the recipe requires it.
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27-12-2011, 09:50 AM
RE: Help me out
Starcrash,

Unfortunately I can't help you out much because I'm too lazy to do the research. I don't have all my arguments memorized and truly can't afford to cram my brain with that info since I'm starting college soon lol

I think your approach is a smart one though.

Idiot: : a foolish or stupid person
— idiot adjective
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27-12-2011, 10:02 AM
RE: Help me out
C&P some of the questions, I might be able to help. I can't view the forum from this network.

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27-12-2011, 02:16 PM
RE: Help me out
(27-12-2011 10:02 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  C&P some of the questions, I might be able to help. I can't view the forum from this network.

I got bored of my original question because I kept getting responses from the same guy, and he keeps trying to derail it. My new question is "How can we know if prayer is answered by God or by chance?" It's in response to critics of prayer studies, claiming that prayer is "done wrong" by scientists. I cited the example of Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane, praying to get out of having to die. Either his prayer was unanswered or answered with a "no", and it clearly had nothing to do with whether he was praying correctly. If Jesus' prayer was denied, then even his prayers couldn't produce reliable evidence for prayer. So on what basis are people claiming that they are "certain" that their prayers are answered if even the proper method can't produce a predictable result? How can their "answered prayer" be separated from chance and coincidence?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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27-12-2011, 02:23 PM
RE: Help me out
Yes, this is much better. You said it yourself, chances are slim to get through to somebody, no matter what you say. But at least this way you can push the debate out out of the circular apologetics. Keep up the good work.

Cheers.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

I would never shake a baby unless the recipe requires it.
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27-12-2011, 02:25 PM
RE: Help me out
Well... since prayers of the unbelievers aren't heard, the only people who could conduct this experiment would be believers. And since they are already prejudice to a certain belief, the results would be heavily skewed.

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27-12-2011, 02:50 PM
RE: Help me out
(27-12-2011 02:25 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Well... since prayers of the unbelievers aren't heard, the only people who could conduct this experiment would be believers. And since they are already prejudice to a certain belief, the results would be heavily skewed.

I have to ask where it is said that prayers of the unbelievers aren't heard. I probably don't remember a scripture that states this. Maybe you could help me on this. Because it sounds like God has an auto-mute button on atheists.

As for the rest of your comment yeah I agree it would be heavily skewed.

Idiot: : a foolish or stupid person
— idiot adjective
See Republican Candidates.

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