Help me understand Israel.
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16-07-2014, 04:54 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
(16-07-2014 04:29 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(16-07-2014 10:09 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  ...
Not even a little. I was asking about the modern State of Israel that apparently was formed in 48 or sometime around there.
I think you knew that and decided to fuck with me. But that's ok, I can take it!

Oh! Why didn't you say so?

The modern state of Israel was formed from clay and a spare rib by god.

Or.... here.

Quote:On May 14, 1948, the last British forces left through Haifa. The same day, in a public ceremony in Tel-Aviv, Ben-Gurion read the Israeli Declaration of Independence, declaring the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel.[109] Both superpower leaders, U.S. President Harry S. Truman and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, immediately recognized the new state.

I read the Wikipedia thing but I'm too dull to get it. So I came here.
Anyway. Are you saying that some guys said "this is a good place to start a state. Let's do that."
Who owned the land before Israel was established and does Israel have a right to exist there? I mean aside from it being recognized by the big boys on the block.
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16-07-2014, 04:55 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
(16-07-2014 04:54 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  
(16-07-2014 04:29 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Oh! Why didn't you say so?

The modern state of Israel was formed from clay and a spare rib by god.

Or.... here.

I read the Wikipedia thing but I'm too dull to get it. So I came here.
Anyway. Are you saying that some guys said "this is a good place to start a state. Let's do that."
Who owned the land before Israel was established and does Israel have a right to exist there? I mean aside from it being recognized by the big boys on the block.

The Ottomans. They lost their land rights when they collapsed.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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16-07-2014, 06:06 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
(16-07-2014 04:54 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  ...
Who owned the land before
...

No one.

All property is theft.

Drinking Beverage

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16-07-2014, 06:54 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
The current Israeli situation in Palestine resembles nothing so much as the Japanese in 1930s China. There's no coherent ideology at work, there's no plan, there's no control, there's no clear beginning and no clear actors; we can just say the situation sucks balls - and most people oppose it, but for various reasons there's no possibility of unilateral drawback... Just a shambling mess of flawed humans in bad situations.
(we call that history)

It's pathetically facile to say "it r Amerikkka fault lol" (because Israel's patron in its early years was first the Soviet Union and then France...). The same holds no matter how far up the road you want to kick that can - the UK and France, or the Arabs, or the Ottomans, or the Egyptians, or the Mongols, or the Crusaders, or the Byzantines, or the Romans, or the Greeks, or the Persians, or the Babylonians, or the damn homo erectus who were there first (homo sapiens: the Original ethnic cleansers™!).

Perhaps the following video will be instructive:



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16-07-2014, 07:59 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
All I know is that I will never hear the end of this is the sign of the end times bullshitDodgy

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16-07-2014, 08:38 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
Drunkin Druid, the two pages here https://history.state.gov/milestones/194...ion-israel are as good an explanation as you will find anywhere although it is superficial.

The Jewish people think their right to Israel dates back a few thousand years when "God led Moses and the Jewish people out of Egypt and to the promised land (Israel)." Palestinians believe they are entitled to the land because many of them can trace their families and land ownership there back 4,000 to 5,000 years. And besides that, Mohammed lived there and taught the Muslims to be Muslims there. But the jews think God gave them the land and in 1946, the USA and some other countries affirmed that belief. The real trouble started when Jewish refugees from Europe flooded into Israel by the boatloads and declared Israel to be an independent Jewish state in 1946. That pissed off the Palestinian Muslims who thought that was their "Holy Land" and it was called Palestine, and not Israel, and had been called Palestine for several thousand years.

The real problem is that both religious groups, the Jewish Israelites and the Palestinian Muslims, each believe that God gave them the land and that makes the whole situation a clusterfuck. But, it's all in good fun albeit a bit lopsided. Israel kills about 50 Palestinians for every Israeli the Palestinians kill but then the USA has sold/given the Israelis F-16s and the Palestinians only have a few rusty old AK-47s. If we are going to arm those fuckers, we ought to arm both sides equally.
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16-07-2014, 09:19 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
Modern day Israel in one easy to understand paragraph - By Muffs

*deep-breath*

In the 1800's a 'movement' among Jews called Zionism mentioned something about a state of Israel due to religious and historical reasons. It grew momentum within the Jewish community. Following the outbreak of WW1 the allies (UK and France and Russia for a little while) were having a rough time against the central powers (Germany, Austria-Hungary, Italy at some point in there, Ottoman Empire somewhere in there too). Meanwhile the US was casually dicking around across the Atlantic due to it's non-intervention policy and a belief that "it's Europe problem, not ours" (which it was in fairness, this was pre-Hitler). The Allies, strapped for allies, decided to hit the weak spot of the central powers, the Ottomans, and so recruited some Arab group within the Ottoman Empire to fight the Ottoman Empire (Arabs and Turks, while all part of the Ottoman Empire, didn't get a long so good) and in return the Allies promised these Arabs independence when the Ottoman Empire gets split up. Meanwhile in the US the Allies sought to get the US dragged into the war to tip the scales in their favor. The US at the time had a very powerful Jewish population (Jews in high places, rich and powerful) and so it was decided that to appease the Jews they would promise them the state of Israel as what they wanted due to Zionism. The state of Israel just happened to be the same location they promised to the Arabs... So the Jews in the US pushed for the US to join the war and than that ship got hit by a German sub or whatever and that was the 'excuse' the US was looking for and joined the war. Skip a bit and the Allies win the war. The Jews, whom were promised the state of Israel, started to slowly migrate to the region. When the war ended the allies (France and the UK) split the Ottoman Empire up between themselves. Blah blah blah, skip to the end of WW2 and so many Jews had migrated to the region (helped by people fleeing the holocaust in Europe) that they were basically able to bully the locals (Palestine) and form the state of Israel. Blah blah blah, a couple wars, blah blah blah and you end up with Israel today where Jews have basically moved to Palestine and taken the country over. This is why Palestine believes Israel to be occupiers because Jews just moved in and took over. So Palestine will always hate Israel because they believe them to be occupiers and Israel will always hate Palestine because they believe they have the religious right to be there and all the war and hate and blah blah between Palestine and Israel that has happened between the end of WW1 and today. Basically a whole bunch of Jews moved to the region of modern Israel because of Zionism (a theology that grew in popularity since the 1800's) and took over and the local Muslims are pissed off because of it (understandably).

There will never be peace because they hate each other too much. They're both looking for any excuse, as you can see on the news now with what's going on.
It'll end when Israel goes in and basically takes over and claims the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. It'll than just become an internal instability thing and some hippies will go around preaching "free Palestine" because we all know how well that worked out for Tibet...

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18-07-2014, 08:09 AM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
(16-07-2014 09:19 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Modern day Israel in one easy to understand paragraph - By Muffs

*deep-breath*

In the 1800's a 'movement' among Jews called Zionism mentioned something about a state of Israel due to religious and historical reasons. It grew momentum within the Jewish community. Following the outbreak of WW1 the allies (UK and France and Russia for a little while) were having a rough time against the central powers (Germany, Austria-Hungary, Italy at some point in there, Ottoman Empire somewhere in there too). Meanwhile the US was casually dicking around across the Atlantic due to it's non-intervention policy and a belief that "it's Europe problem, not ours" (which it was in fairness, this was pre-Hitler). The Allies, strapped for allies, decided to hit the weak spot of the central powers, the Ottomans, and so recruited some Arab group within the Ottoman Empire to fight the Ottoman Empire (Arabs and Turks, while all part of the Ottoman Empire, didn't get a long so good) and in return the Allies promised these Arabs independence when the Ottoman Empire gets split up. Meanwhile in the US the Allies sought to get the US dragged into the war to tip the scales in their favor. The US at the time had a very powerful Jewish population (Jews in high places, rich and powerful) and so it was decided that to appease the Jews they would promise them the state of Israel as what they wanted due to Zionism. The state of Israel just happened to be the same location they promised to the Arabs... So the Jews in the US pushed for the US to join the war and than that ship got hit by a German sub or whatever and that was the 'excuse' the US was looking for and joined the war. Skip a bit and the Allies win the war. The Jews, whom were promised the state of Israel, started to slowly migrate to the region. When the war ended the allies (France and the UK) split the Ottoman Empire up between themselves. Blah blah blah, skip to the end of WW2 and so many Jews had migrated to the region (helped by people fleeing the holocaust in Europe) that they were basically able to bully the locals (Palestine) and form the state of Israel. Blah blah blah, a couple wars, blah blah blah and you end up with Israel today where Jews have basically moved to Palestine and taken the country over. This is why Palestine believes Israel to be occupiers because Jews just moved in and took over. So Palestine will always hate Israel because they believe them to be occupiers and Israel will always hate Palestine because they believe they have the religious right to be there and all the war and hate and blah blah between Palestine and Israel that has happened between the end of WW1 and today. Basically a whole bunch of Jews moved to the region of modern Israel because of Zionism (a theology that grew in popularity since the 1800's) and took over and the local Muslims are pissed off because of it (understandably).

There will never be peace because they hate each other too much. They're both looking for any excuse, as you can see on the news now with what's going on.
It'll end when Israel goes in and basically takes over and claims the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. It'll than just become an internal instability thing and some hippies will go around preaching "free Palestine" because we all know how well that worked out for Tibet...
Thanks brother.
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18-07-2014, 10:10 AM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
The UN decided to create it.

The cynic in me wonders if the various European states wanted to get rid of a whole bunch of jews who remained.

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19-07-2014, 08:58 AM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
What do you think of this as a primer



?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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