Help me understand Israel.
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19-07-2014, 04:34 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
(16-07-2014 04:54 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  <snip>
Who owned the land before Israel was established and does Israel have a right to exist there? I mean aside from it being recognized by the big boys on the block.

Who owned the land before the Israelis :
Mandatory Palestine (1920-1948) ruled by the British government. After that this entity ceased to exist The State of Israel was created.

Sources :
1.Mandatory Palestine on Wikipedia
2.An Article from NYT by Edwin L.James in April , 26 , 1920 about the foundation of Mandatory Palestine.
3.Israel on Wikipedia
4.An Article from The Manchester Guardian in May , 15 , 1948 called The Jewish State Born (Unhappily it isn't free)

You must ask to yourself who were here before the British and who were here before the Ottomans.
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20-07-2014, 09:35 AM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
Couple of gaps I'd like to fill in from some of the information here.

Jews were heading towards what was then Palestine prior to the start of WWII when it was obvious some serious shit was going to do down with Germany, and it was not going to go well for Jews. The British, in order to placate the Arabs, kept a tight reign on how many Jews were allowed to migrate there. At the end of the war, when the Holocaust was revealed to the world, western countries who did nothing to stop it or prevent it probably felt some amount of collective guilt. It didn't help that the Arabs sided with the Germans (and really sided against their British occupiers - not exactly the same thing but a nuance that the British didn't give a fuck about) lead to a giant policy of "fuck you" towards the people who lived in the region. Many of the surviving Jews in Europe wanted to get out, and they wanted to go to their biblical homeland. England opened the doors and there was a mass exodus to present day Israel in the days immediately after the end of the war.

The Jews started to solidify their land positions and then petitioned the UN to recognize their holdings as a sovereign country so they didn't have to ever again depend on anyone else to defend them. The Arabs who lived there spoke up and said "wait a sec - we had nothing at all to do with this Holocaust thing, we didn't round up Jews and gas them by the millions, and we didn't ignore that it was going on and flat out refuse to bomb the railroad lines leading to these death camps like the Allies did - so how the fuck is it that our land now gets partitioned up and given to these people? Why don't you give them some place in Europe? Or maybe Africa? Oh, and we have oil so you maybe need to listen to us". The UN listened to this argument and said "you know, that's really a good point, and they have oil. But, us white people aren't willing to give these Jews any part of Europe. Let's go see what's available in Africa". So, they scoped out a large plot of land - and I believe it was bigger than present day Israel, around Uganda. " So, they went to the Jews in Palestine and said "we have this lovely bit of land in Uganda you can have. All the people who live there now are black and they don't have oil so no one will ever know or care what you do to them - what do you say?" The Jews said "no thanks, we really want the land in Palestine and we are prepared to take it by force".

So, the white nations of the world got together and said "you know, we really did screw these people, and the Arabs did side with the Germans, and we could also take the oil by force if necessary - so let's give it to the Jews and be done with it". And, that's pretty much what happened. Oh, and to create the appearance of fairness, they created two states - one for the Jews and one for the Palestinians. And, all the Arab nations around the new Jewish state said "fuck this, we are going to drive you into the sea if this happens". So, the UN had a vote, the vote created Israel, and the Arabs went to war. Then, a funny thing happened - Jordan and Syria and Egypt and Lebanon captured all the lands that were promised to the Palestinians, but were defeated by the new Israel and had to stop the war. You would think they would give the captured lands over the the people it was promised too, but they didn't. Instead, they created massive refuge camps and left these people sitting there as political statements. And, no one talked about them at all until 1967 when there was another war and this time Israel captured some of those areas back from the Arabs. And then they took more in 1973. And suddenly these became known as the "occupied territories".

What happened next was almost comical. Countries who paid zero attention to the plight of the Palestinians when they were living in camps in Jordan and Syria suddenly were all outraged when it was Israel holding the land. That started a series of events that continues until today, with both sides trying to out do each other in violence and stupidity.

There is more than just religion in play here. There is a level of distrust and hatred that transcends religious belief. Religion is a tool used effectively by both sides, but it is not the cause of these problems. And, neither side really has the moral high ground here. Both sides have done things that are fairly despicable and lead to the loss of life. As a secondary point, Israel is facing a South Africa apartheid situation where Israeli Palestinians will soon out number the Jews 4 - 1. If Israel wants to claim they are a true democracy, they are going to have a real problem on their hands when they give all those Palestinians an equal vote. So, that's clearly not going to happen.

I have no idea what the solution is. Hamas, and others, refusing to acknowledge Israel's right to exist is a key reason why there is not going to be peace in the near term. You can't have peace with a group who's reason for existence is to get rid of you. The Israeli's need to find a way to make peace with the majority of the Palestinian peoples and make these fringe groups something they all oppose. Right now, they are working as hard as they can to do the complete and total opposite.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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21-07-2014, 09:43 AM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
(16-07-2014 08:25 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  I'm trying to understand the problem in Israel. I've tried to understand but my little mind will not allow it.
Here are the questions I'd like answered.
How did Israel form? Apparently it's got something to do with a migration of Jews into the area and a migration of Muslims (or is it more correct to say Arabs?) out.
Did they pay for the land in any way or did they just park there and say "this is ours!"?
Was anybody forced to leave the area?
Does Israel have a right to exist?
And why the fuck can't there be peace?
Anybody want to help this poor layman understand?

Not all Muslims are Arabs, and not all Arabs are Muslims.
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21-07-2014, 04:09 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
(21-07-2014 09:43 AM)atheistsince1950 Wrote:  
(16-07-2014 08:25 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  I'm trying to understand the problem in Israel. I've tried to understand but my little mind will not allow it.
Here are the questions I'd like answered.
How did Israel form? Apparently it's got something to do with a migration of Jews into the area and a migration of Muslims (or is it more correct to say Arabs?) out.
Did they pay for the land in any way or did they just park there and say "this is ours!"?
Was anybody forced to leave the area?
Does Israel have a right to exist?
And why the fuck can't there be peace?
Anybody want to help this poor layman understand?

Not all Muslims are Arabs, and not all Arabs are Muslims.

He didn't say they are.
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22-07-2014, 03:22 AM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
Given the comments I am seeing in my personal Facebook feed from friends about this latest Gaza situation, I decided to excerpt the section of my book dealing with the modern history of Israel.

Perhaps this will address some of the questions of the OP.


.pdf  Manifest Insanity - Israel & US Foreign Policy.pdf (Size: 255.06 KB / Downloads: 36)

Manifest Insanity @ Amazon
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25-07-2014, 01:17 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
(16-07-2014 08:25 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  I'm trying to understand the problem in Israel. I've tried to understand but my little mind will not allow it.
Here are the questions I'd like answered.
How did Israel form?

During the rise of of antisemitism during the late 19th and early 20th century in Europe, the idiology of zionism evolved, which is an ideology centerd arround creating a jewish nation for the worlds jews. Increasing numbers of jews migrated from Europe into northern palestine and started building jewish settlements. After the holocaust that number of jews increased drasticly, with the survivors of the holocaust migrating to those jewish settlements.
The world also agreed after the holocaust that a jewish nation is needed to protect the jews. So the UN voted to create a jewish state in northern Palestine called Israel.

Quote:Apparently it's got something to do with a migration of Jews into the area and a migration of Muslims (or is it more correct to say Arabs?) out.
Did they pay for the land in any way or did they just park there and say "this is ours!"?

Northern Palestine was almoust completly inhavited by jews. But when the state of Israel was founded there in 1948 - the entire middle east including Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Suadi Arabia and so on, emidiatly declared war. Israel won that war and conquered vast parts of Palestine, causing the Arabs who lived there to flee.
And during the 6 day war, it conquered all of Palestine.
Quote:Was anybody forced to leave the area?

Arabs were forced to leave eastern and southern Palestine as a result of Israels 1948 victory.
Quote:Does Israel have a right to exist?

Yes. What else should happen to the 8 million people who are now living there? The Iranians for example propose to have them all killed.
Quote:And why the fuck can't there be peace?

Because the Arabs seem to have collectively embraced 20th century style antisemitism.

Quote:Anybody want to help this poor layman understand?

I am very pro Israeli. Probably even a zionist myself. So I can only argue for the Israeli side of things.

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25-07-2014, 06:33 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
Quote:Because the Arabs seem to have collectively embraced 20th century style antisemitism.

Israel doesn't help the situation. It's a two way street.
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25-07-2014, 07:02 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
(25-07-2014 06:33 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Because the Arabs seem to have collectively embraced 20th century style antisemitism.

Israel doesn't help the situation. It's a two way street.

Doesnt matter.

When the allied forces sent bombers to flatten all German cities, nobody anywhere in the US, France or UK held protest marchs under the motto "Free Germany"

Because back then people still saw fascism for the ugly and reched thing that it is.

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25-07-2014, 08:16 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
Palestine didn't invade numerous European nations and threaten to invade more/entire world...

The bombing of cities was a unbelievably horrid thing. Many innocent civilians were killed and it was wrong when it was done by the Germans and it was wrong when it was done by the Allies. It ruined people's lives, innocent people, and kept people living in constant fear of air raids.

People didn't protest because there was casualties on both sides. France was occupied and the previous great war was still fresh in people's memories.

Israel and Palestine is a very different situation. Palestinians were just chillin in Palestine when Jews just decided to move and take over. Yes the holocaust was unfair on Jews (obviously), but what did the Palestinians do? Why should they be punished and forced out of their home for what one crazed German did in the 30's and 40's?
I support Israel too but I fail to see how anyone can view Israel with a halo above their head. Hamas fire rockets into Israel, yes. BUT Israel has anti-rocket protection and so deaths/injury are rare/tiny. Hardly worth the response that Israel has responded with. Bombing of schools, hundreds of Gaza civilians dead etc.. how is that justice or fair? and how is that solving the issue? How is blockading a country so that medical supplies and food become scarce a viable strategy in weeding out "terrorists"? Israel is driving people into Hamas and forcing Palestinians to hate Israel which causes more issues. Israel is probably doing it on purpose to "justify" their force.

It's a two way road, it's that bloody simple.
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26-07-2014, 10:00 AM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
(25-07-2014 08:16 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Palestine didn't invade numerous European nations and threaten to invade more/entire world...

Hamas demands the killing of all jews in the world.

And prior to 2010 demanded the establishment of a global caliphate under sharia law. A demand the scraped due to "public image", but which some of their members still voice.

Quote:The bombing of cities was a unbelievably horrid thing. Many innocent civilians were killed and it was wrong when it was done by the Germans and it was wrong when it was done by the Allies. It ruined people's lives, innocent people, and kept people living in constant fear of air raids.

And those "innocent civilians" had chosen fascism.

Just like how the "innocent civilians" chose Hamas. Now they can either get rid of Hamas, or die with them.

Quote:People didn't protest because there was casualties on both sides. France was occupied and the previous great war was still fresh in people's memories.

No. Because nobody saw any good reason for being pro German. And rightfully so.
Quote:Israel and Palestine is a very different situation. Palestinians were just chillin in Palestine when Jews just decided to move and take over. Yes the holocaust was unfair on Jews (obviously), but what did the Palestinians do? Why should they be punished and forced out of their home for what one crazed German did in the 30's and 40's?

What did they do? Your dishonesty is breathtaking. Besides the fact that many of them openly supported nazi Germany, all islamic nations declared war on Israel in 1948 and either drove out or murderd their entire jewish population.

Quote:I support Israel too but I fail to see how anyone can view Israel with a halo above their head. Hamas fire rockets into Israel, yes. BUT Israel has anti-rocket protection and so deaths/injury are rare/tiny. Hardly worth the response that Israel has responded with. Bombing of schools, hundreds of Gaza civilians dead etc.. how is that justice or fair? and how is that solving the issue? How is blockading a country so that medical supplies and food become scarce a viable strategy in weeding out "terrorists"? Israel is driving people into Hamas and forcing Palestinians to hate Israel which causes more issues. Israel is probably doing it on purpose to "justify" their force.

It's a two way road, it's that bloody simple.

Halo? Nobody is talking about a halo. I simply see Israel as a normal state with the right to protect it`s citizens from muslim savages.

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