Help me understand Israel.
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29-07-2014, 06:42 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
(29-07-2014 05:54 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(29-07-2014 05:25 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  How on God's green earth does that mean they are in the right? Are you fucking retarded or were you just dropped on your head as a baby?

The US has the might to take over a shit ton of countries yet it doesn't.
The US could take over Canada if it so desired. But it doesn't for the same reason Israel is limited in what it can do, because of international pressure.
Might =/= Right

And of course they're fighting back, the Jews blatantly took over their home land... Anyone else would do the same.

They reclaimed land that their people had inhabited since before recorded history. "Palestine" is a construct of the European colonists, it does not exist by any reasonable measure. Israel has always and will always exist.


It really does amaze me how much antisemitism is unmasked when ever Israel is brought up.

The great diaspora of Jews from the Middle East began 2500 years ago and continued for a thousand years. They have no great claim to that land.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-07-2014, 06:45 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
And here I thought he was just stupid.
Turns out he's actually a sock puppet troll.
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29-07-2014, 06:55 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
(29-07-2014 06:45 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  And here I thought he was just stupid.
Turns out he's actually a sock puppet troll.

He is extremely retarded though... Who is he a sock puppet of?
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29-07-2014, 06:59 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
Probably what's his face. The dude that just keeps coming back.
But I digress, we shouldn't take what was a decent thread off topic.
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30-07-2014, 03:41 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
(29-07-2014 05:25 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(29-07-2014 05:11 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  This itself proves that Israel is in the right. Israel has the might to wipe out all of its enemies, but only defends itself. The Arabs do not have the might to destroy Israel, yet continue to attempt to do so anyway.

How on God's green earth does that mean they are in the right? Are you fucking retarded or were you just dropped on your head as a baby?

The US has the might to take over a shit ton of countries yet it doesn't.
The US could take over Canada if it so desired. But it doesn't for the same reason Israel is limited in what it can do, because of international pressure.
Might =/= Right

And of course they're fighting back, the Jews blatantly took over their home land... Anyone else would do the same.

Funny analogy about the US taking over Canada.
According to "war plan red" the US did plan on invading Canada & disregarded international pressure until the plan was not feasible due to outbreak of WW2 (i.e greater enemies such as Nazi Germany rather than previous rivalries with England.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red
The US thought they could get away with it and England would not have the resources to defend Canada as per its commonwealth obligations.

The US invaded the West coast and conquered Mexico - and this isn't so long in the past - only some 160 years ago. Does this mean Mexicans if the wanted could do suicide bombings and fire missiles at Los-Angeles ? Mexico has accepted the situation, they lost the war and sorted out their refugees and hence such a situation is totally unlikely (Mexicans are also not fundamentalist muslims believing in an Islamic Ummah - which kind of helps ! ).
The same goes for much of North Africa conquered by Arab Caliphates and Islamisized - which also includes Palestine. Eg Arabs are now the majority rulers in Egypt and persecute Coptics who have a stronger claim for the Land.

Arabs dont have a stronger claim to Palestine/Israel because there is historical continuity between the Jewish people and Israel. Jews were FORCED to be exiled and in many cases banned from returning either by Byzantine Christians or the subsequent Islamic conquerors. There are a whole host of other reasons why Jewish people have a claim to their own land being Israel - I have listed these elsewhere in the blog.
(eg 3/4 million Jewish refugees exiled from Arab countries such as Iraq finding a home in Israel - essentially a refugee swap, this alone gives a right for Jews to have their own land considering 100,000's of properties were looted by Arabs in Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Libya, Algeria....etc)
other reasons are listed at the bottom of:
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ort-Israel

Jews started returning partly due to a relaxing approach to this banned return by the late ottoman Empire as it was waning in and had its own internal struggles in the 19th century. (...and not long after the US conquered the West from Mexico and in contrast, the US has utterly no historical attachment to any part of the "American" continent never mind the West Coast !!!)

Important for this blog is that many of the reasons for a Jewish claim are secular and not "fundamentalist religious."

If one want to go down the fundamentalist religious rabbit hole then Jews and Muslims have a slate mate mutual claim to Israel/Palestine that is undecidable because both religious "orthodoxies" are deluded. The Muslims believe in the integrity of the "Ummah" - the original Islamic commonwealth conquered by Mohammed and the dynasties which followed (The so called "Golden Era" of conquests such as the Abbasid Caliphate) - all these lands are considered part of the God given Islamic Ummah and their loss is a blow to the integrity of "Political Islamic aspirations" (yes, an Islamic moderate may not care so much and focus on their own religious practice - but Islam also has a political & global aspiration not just individual religious practice) As for fundamentalist orthodox Jews they believe the land is God given and fulfillment of prophecies and hence a right to the land of Israel. At this stage its a stale mate and time to hit your head on the wall until it bleeds. Unless of course the wall cracks first revealing Jews claimed it first as God given before the Islamic Caliphates who copied the idea and made up a story about Mohammed's ascent in Jerusalem !!! After all Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Quran but central to Judaism from the hazy historically questionable early biblical period to the well established historical narrative during the Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman periods - i.e many centuries (well over 1000 years).

This leaves Jews with a stronger claim to the land of Israel than most nations on Earth have to any land ! (of course there are exception to this eg a powerful historical continuity and national integrity within the Indus subcontinent to India's Heritage or Chinese etc.)

An alternate view is no one owns any land and its all bullshit homosapiens make up as part of a deluded cognitively impaired species eventually all leading to dust.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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30-07-2014, 04:24 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
(30-07-2014 03:41 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
(29-07-2014 05:25 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  How on God's green earth does that mean they are in the right? Are you fucking retarded or were you just dropped on your head as a baby?

The US has the might to take over a shit ton of countries yet it doesn't.
The US could take over Canada if it so desired. But it doesn't for the same reason Israel is limited in what it can do, because of international pressure.
Might =/= Right

And of course they're fighting back, the Jews blatantly took over their home land... Anyone else would do the same.

Funny analogy about the US taking over Canada.
According to "war plan red" the US did plan on invading Canada & disregarded international pressure until the plan was not feasible due to outbreak of WW2 (i.e greater enemies such as Nazi Germany rather than previous rivalries with England.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red
The US thought they could get away with it and England would not have the resources to defend Canada as per its commonwealth obligations.

WUT.

No. No. No, no, no, and also no.

A competent general staff will wargame everything. Including things they'd never actually do. Because asking your officers "given situation A how would you do X/Y/Z" is the whole point of war colleges.

"If it weren't for the Nazis America would have invaded Canada" is one of the greatest* things I've ever heard.

*for a certain value of "greatest"

(30-07-2014 03:41 PM)Baruch Wrote:  The US invaded the West coast and conquered Mexico - and this isn't so long in the past - only some 160 years ago. Does this mean Mexicans if the wanted could do suicide bombings and fire missiles at Los-Angeles ? Mexico has accepted the situation, they lost the war and sorted out their refugees and hence such a situation is totally unlikely (Mexicans are also not fundamentalist muslims believing in an Islamic Ummah - which kind of helps ! ).
The same goes for much of North Africa conquered by Arab Caliphates and Islamisized - which also includes Palestine. Eg Arabs are now the majority rulers in Egypt and persecute Coptics who have a stronger claim for the Land.

Arabs dont have a stronger claim to Palestine/Israel because there is historical continuity between the Jewish people and Israel. Jews were FORCED to be exiled and in many cases banned from returning either by Byzantine Christians or the subsequent Islamic conquerors. There are a whole host of other reasons why Jewish people have a claim to their own land being Israel - I have listed these elsewhere in the blog.
(eg 3/4 million Jewish refugees exiled from Arab countries such as Iraq finding a home in Israel - essentially a refugee swap, this alone gives a right for Jews to have their own land considering 100,000's of properties were looted by Arabs in Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Libya, Algeria....etc)
other reasons are listed at the bottom of:
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ort-Israel

"But they started it" is not compelling reasoning. Nor is "but we were here first". If you wouldn't let a kid in a sandbox get away with the same reasoning...

The original human inhabitants of the region weren't even homo sapiens.

(30-07-2014 03:41 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Jews started returning partly due to a relaxing approach to this banned return by the late ottoman Empire as it was waning in and had its own internal struggles in the 19th century. (...and not long after the US conquered the West from Mexico and in contrast, the US has utterly no historical attachment to any part of the "American" continent never mind the West Coast !!!)

Zionism and Manifest Destiny both just boil down to "fuck people who aren't us". The difference between religious and secular imperialism is immaterial.

(30-07-2014 03:41 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Important for this blog is that many of the reasons for a Jewish claim are secular and not "fundamentalist religious."

If one want to go down the fundamentalist religious rabbit hole then Jews and Muslims have a slate mate mutual claim to Israel/Palestine that is undecidable because both religious "orthodoxies" are deluded. The Muslims believe in the integrity of the "Ummah" - the original Islamic commonwealth conquered by Mohammed and the dynasties which followed (The so called "Golden Era" of conquests such as the Abbasid Caliphate) - all these lands are considered part of the God given Islamic Ummah and their loss is a blow to the integrity of "Political Islamic aspirations" (yes, an Islamic moderate may not care so much and focus on their own religious practice - but Islam also has a political & global aspiration not just individual religious practice) As for fundamentalist orthodox Jews they believe the land is God given and fulfillment of prophecies and hence a right to the land of Israel. At this stage its a stale mate and time to hit your head on the wall until it bleeds. Unless of course the wall cracks first revealing Jews claimed it first as God given before the Islamic Caliphates who copied the idea and made up a story about Mohammed's ascent in Jerusalem !!! After all Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Quran but central to Judaism from the hazy historically questionable early biblical period to the well established historical narrative during the Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman periods - i.e many centuries (well over 1000 years).

The trouble there is separating the True Believers from the personally/politically expedient believers. Arab and Israeli politicians being the latter, since "don't blame me, all your problems are the other guy's fault" is politically timeless.

(30-07-2014 03:41 PM)Baruch Wrote:  This leaves Jews with a stronger claim to the land of Israel than most nations on Earth have to any land ! (of course there are exception to this eg a powerful historical continuity and national integrity within the Indus subcontinent to India's Heritage or Chinese etc.)

And the Indus river itself is in... Pakistan.

(30-07-2014 03:41 PM)Baruch Wrote:  An alternate view is no one owns any land and its all bullshit homosapiens make up as part of a deluded cognitively impaired species eventually all leading to dust.

Sure. But that alone doesn't exactly solve problems.
(not to be disingenuous; all of us schmucks on a forum have jack shit actual influence, so it hardly matters whether we have any constructive ideas)

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30-07-2014, 06:00 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
cjlr:

1. I don't know enough about "War Plan Red" and planned invasion of Canada to comment in depth - and to be honest I don't think any of us do. Yes it may all be speculative war games but the US did have grievances with Canada + England and did lose major campaigns in Canada in the previous century. I cannot conjecture on what "would have happened" or alternate histories had things turned out slightly differently - none of us can.

As for conjectures for alternate Israel/Palestine histories - these could be endless & speculative.
...If Many more Jews returned post the Mogul-Arab wars then perhaps there would have been wider acceptance of Israel considering the populations in the Palestine region were extremely low with Jerusalem for example almost abandoned. However this is also somewhat fictional considering transport was limited at the time.
...If Haj Amin al-Husseini died prematurely then Palestinian nationalism might have never taken hold and the results would be a much quieter reemergence of Israel.
...If the invading Arab Armies in 1948 from Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq won then 100,000's of Jews would have been murdered and most likely there would be no Palestine but an extension of the borders of current Syria, Egypt and Jordan.
...If the British didn't train the Arab Legion Jordanian forces then the fledgling Israel would have won the battle of Jerusalem and defended the Jews trapped in the old city (many being indigenous with long history of continuity) and there would probably be a clear cut border with Jordan along the River Jordan making partitioning much less complicated. (basically Palestine would be Jordan - not an unusual position considering "Jordan" was carved up by the British Mandate and given to the Hashemite tribes and Jordan annexed what is the West Bank between 1948 - 1967 with no intentions of making a Palestinian state)
...If Jews lost their historical attachment to Israel as a historical continuity then there would probably have been a trans-Jordan with a relatively low population of mainly Arabs ? This is partly due to Jewish emigration to Palestine causing many Arabs to also emigrate from Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon etc due to a growing economy in the region in the late 19th/early 20th century.

...one can speculate forever about alternate histories.


Quote: Baruch Wrote: An alternate view is no one owns any land and its all bullshit homosapiens make up as part of a deluded cognitively impaired species eventually all leading to dust.


Sure. But that alone doesn't exactly solve problems.
(not to be disingenuous; all of us schmucks on a forum have jack shit actual influence, so it hardly matters whether we have any constructive ideas)

Agree. All Shmucks.
Had a Homo-Sapien not had intercourse with a Neanderthal who knows what would have been. Damn Homo's.

Quote:Zionism and Manifest Destiny both just boil down to "fuck people who aren't us". The difference between religious and secular imperialism is immaterial.

I disagree - there are many types of zionism from ridiculously absurd fundamentalist imperialism to quite reasonable, rational and defensive. After all Israel is a western style democracy with 1/5 of its population being Arabs. Other minorities such are Druze (~130,000 - which is a significant number) have a very good relationship with Jews, participate in Israeli society + politics and serve in the Israeli army - some being in Elite units and are far better off in Israel than in neighboring countries. (except when they get killed in the IDF.) In fact this is a good example to learn from were Druze live quite peacefully within Israel.
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Druze
Many Zionists, including religious have no problems with other non Jews living in Israel contrary to your statement "fuck people who aren't us". In fact most secular Israeli Jews dont give a shit and would marry Israeli Druze or Israeli Arabs. However despite being "secular" they are still zionists in the sense of identity as part of a independent democratic state - NOT ruled by some fascist Arab dictators (Eg Syria) or Islamist wanna be Caliphate (Eg Iran/Muslim Brotherhood or Hamas dreams).

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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30-07-2014, 06:27 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
(30-07-2014 06:00 PM)Baruch Wrote:  cjlr:

1. I don't know enough about "War Plan Red" and planned invasion of Canada to comment in depth - and to be honest I don't think any of us do. Yes it may all be speculative war games but the US did have grievances with Canada + England and did lose major campaigns in Canada in the previous century. I cannot conjecture on what "would have happened" or alternate histories had things turned out slightly differently - none of us can.

That's a bit of a cop-out. You made a ridiculous claim, and now you're going with the ol' "well, no one can really know for sure..." justification?

Are you seriously - like, genuinely seriously - saying you find it even remotely possible, that because the United States had invaded British Canada in 1812 they were just achin' for a re-match in 1935? In direct contradiction to every geopolitical fact on the ground at the time?

The UK and the USA were the biggest military powers on the planet at the time. "How would we fight these guys?" is what military planners are paid to do and it's what all modern military colleges do all the time, regardless of context.

(30-07-2014 06:00 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
Quote: Baruch Wrote: An alternate view is no one owns any land and its all bullshit homosapiens make up as part of a deluded cognitively impaired species eventually all leading to dust.


Sure. But that alone doesn't exactly solve problems.
(not to be disingenuous; all of us schmucks on a forum have jack shit actual influence, so it hardly matters whether we have any constructive ideas)

Agree. All Shmucks.
Had a Homo-Sapien not had intercourse with a Neanderthal who knows what would have been. Damn Homo's.

Oh, we'd long since ethnically cleansed homo erectus out of the middle-east by then.

Still; what would you do if you were in charge of the region?

(30-07-2014 06:00 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
Quote:Zionism and Manifest Destiny both just boil down to "fuck people who aren't us". The difference between religious and secular imperialism is immaterial.

I disagree - there are many types of zionism from ridiculously absurd fundamentalist imperialism to quite reasonable, rational and defensive. After all Israel is a western style democracy with 1/5 of its population being Arabs. Other minorities such are Druze (~130,000 - which is a significant number) have a very good relationship with Jews, participate in Israeli society + politics and serve in the Israeli army - some being in Elite units and are far better off in Israel than in neighboring countries. (except when they get killed in the IDF.) In fact this is a good example to learn from were Druze live quite peacefully within Israel.
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Druze
Many Zionists, including religious have no problems with other non Jews living in Israel contrary to your statement "fuck people who aren't us". In fact most secular Israeli Jews dont give a shit and would marry Israeli Druze or Israeli Arabs. However despite being "secular" they are still zionists in the sense of identity as part of a independent democratic state - NOT ruled by some fascist Arab dictators (Eg Syria) or Islamist wanna be Caliphate (Eg Iran/Muslim Brotherhood or Hamas dreams).

"They are still zionists in the sense of identity as part of an independent democratic state", eh?

Sure, if you remove absolutely everything relevant about the very concept of Zionism. By that definition a Canadian Jew, living happily in Montreal, who hates the state of Israel is nonetheless still a Zionist. I mean, I guess you can do that, but then the term has become meaningless.

Perhaps that's an implicit "fine with whatever conditions so long as they're in Israel"? But that's also - necessarily - an implicit "fuck you" to anyone else who's anything less than wholly conciliatory to their being there.

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30-07-2014, 06:33 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
My reference to the US taking over Canada was referring to today. I can't speculate as to what would have happened in the past.
And besides, 160 years is a very long time regarding politics over that time period. France and Britain were pretty much mortal enemies until the 1800's/1900's.
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02-08-2014, 08:07 PM
RE: Help me understand Israel.
Quote:
Quote:Agree. All Shmucks.
Had a Homo-Sapien not had intercourse with a Neanderthal who knows what would have been. Damn Homo's.

Oh, we'd long since ethnically cleansed homo erectus out of the middle-east by then.

Still; what would you do if you were in charge of the region?

For what its worth my opinion "if in charge"

Personally I am in favor of promoting secular education, science, liberal democracy, virtue ethics and essentially improving peoples well being.

Within Israel there is division between state & religion and it is a country which has many contributions to medicine, science, promoting secular education, business sectors etc which also includes 1/5 of its Arab population who have more freedoms than any other surrounding Arab countries (i.e Druze and other Arab-Israeli citizens, especially the Israeli Druze who live quite peacefully within Israel, participate within the IDF and other social sectors). Israels contributions to the above are completely disproportional to its population (eg compared to Egypt, Jordan and even many European countries in the west, S.America etc)
Yes, there are Jewish religious enclaves which I don't particularly get on with considering I abandoned religious life - but I promote secular education & philosophy without vanquishing the religious convictions of others by force/violence.


As for Israels neighbors and Palestinians who are not Israeli citizens (i.e West Bank + Gaza) things get more complicated:
Currently I would prefer the Authoritarian military regimes in Jordan & Egypt who are "religious moderates" They suppress Islamic fundamentalists even though they do this often by brutal force. Yes that sounds like a contradiction considering I just said I don't promote vanquishing religious convictions by violence. However I was pleased when Morsi was overthrown in Egypt considering the Muslim brotherhoods leadership is utterly appalling. (sponsoring Terror, restricting more secular Egyptians, burning Churches & Opression against Coptics, supporting Hamas & various insurgencies in the so called "Arab Spring" [maybe a winter ???] etc)
As for King Abdullah - it is not a democracy but both Jordanians & Israel are better off with the Jordanian Hashemite Monarchy even though they have suppressed their population with violence.
As for Syria: Ehh...Its a disaster. It was better for Israel when under Assads control because ISIS & Al-Nusrah are all much worse if they take over. Saying that Assad's father never accepted the Camp David accord and continued hostility to Israel by supporting Hezbollah, occupying Lebanon & its ties to Iran - basically a rogue state.
Any Secular liberal democracy has no chance of success so there are no solutions.

As for West Bank & Gaza: Eventually there is no choice but a two state solution which is possible with the moderate Palestinian Muslims (or secular) and most Palestinian Christians.
The Israeli government unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and can do the same in the west bank and keep Jewish fundamentalists in check which it did in Gaza (settlements were evacuated in 2005).
Israel withdrew from all major population centers in the West Bank as part of the Oslo Peace treaty accords giving autonomy to the Palestinian Authority [armed their police + political autonomy].
However Israel still controls the border with Jordan,relatively unpopulated highlands and has some settlements in areas which are predominately Arab (which I disagree with). There are also some restrictions for movement between some of the large cities in the West Bank via checkpoints.
However there is extreme distrust within Israel towards the Palestinians - including from the Israeli secularists, leftists, moderates etc from withdrawing the settlements and removing all the Strategic/Military security points in the West Bank. This is hardly surprising considering the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza *experiment* has made the situation much worse than when Israel had its settlements there !!!!!!
It is also not surprising considering when Israel was negotiating the Oslo accords the result was multiple Palestinian suicide bombings in Israeli cities killing hundreds of Israelis in public areas with Arafat condemning violent struggle in English and promoting it in Arabic (Nobel peace prizes for that ! )
Most Israeli secularists/Leftists/moderates etc are against settlements in the West bank - however if guaranteed security & Peace even religious fundamentalists can be convinced to dismantle Jewish settlements. (there is a religious law that prioritizes saving Jewish life over settlement expansion which essentially means the ultra orthodox Jews would be violating this law)

As for Gaza - I dont know if you ever tried having a conversation with Jihadist Islamic fundamentalists never mind "negotiating" - these are not exactly the rational type.
Basically there is no solution in the near future.
Israel needs to keep its south secure from Hamas tunnels and cannot continue with rockets falling over most of the country - but cannot open the borders to Gaza and likewise with Egypt/Gaza whilst Hamas is in power.
Basically Israel strategy is the so called "Mowing the grass"
- put Hamas back a few years, get some peace & quiet and repeat a few years later. Meanwhile hoping in between some revolution will occur within Gaza eg some civilian uprising "spring" or other states such as Iran/Qatar/Turkey dont see it in their interests to build up Hamas - which is unlikely considering the conflict is part of a much larger conflict within the middleEast power play.
i.e Muslim Brotherhood, "illiberal democratic Islam", ISIS, Hisbollah, Iran, Al-Nusrah, Qatar, TUrkey VS Saudi, UAE, Egypt, Jordan, non Hesbollah Lebanon, Non-ISIS Iraq. Even this power play is full of contradictions with the US supporting & fueling multiple sides and even Shiah/Sunni divides turning into "moderate/fundamentalist islamic" divides against each other.

...basically a mess.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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