Help through Deconversion
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24-10-2013, 02:17 PM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(24-10-2013 02:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-10-2013 02:06 PM)Jasozz Wrote:  Sure. And most religions have at least SOMETHING thats worth taking away from it. I just can't really define myself with a belief, like I had done with Christianity, unless I can wholeheartedly accept everything about it, including its core beliefs. That makes it tough to just believe in atheism, because of our lack of definite knowledge about the beginning of the universe.

One does not "believe in atheism". Please rid yourself of that notion.

You either believe in god(s) or not. If not, you are an atheist. That's it.

Settle on a complete lack of belief, then.
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24-10-2013, 05:10 PM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(23-10-2013 06:06 PM)Jasozz Wrote:  I joined a Men's group that was all about being a better man/husband/etc., which I loved, because I was still CULTURALLY a Christian, and to this day I still deeply value the teachings of serving and loving others unconditionally, as well as a great deal of other non-deity-related teachings.

Chas thinks it's silly but there are Christian atheists, and Jewish atheists, and Buddhist atheists. And there are probably Muslim atheists but they risk their life by admitting it so they get a pass. Tongue

(23-10-2013 06:06 PM)Jasozz Wrote:  4. (The Big One) I now feel like life is pointless. Recently I can't get excited about anything because my mind just jumps to "it won't matter and you're going to die eventually". I've also developed a MASSIVE fear of my own mortality since this deconversion thing kicked into high-gear, due to A) being afraid of being wrong and there being an eternal punishment and B) feeling the brevity of life now that I've started really thinking about it.

The point is that now you are responsible for making your own point, creating your own meaning, understanding and fully appreciating that meaning is only to be found in the temporary. The eternal negates the possibility of meaning while the transitory exalts it. Think you'll be fine.

(24-10-2013 06:40 AM)excubitor Wrote:  A fear of God and a fear of hell is a good thing. This will save you if it causes you to repent and turn back to God.

Da' fuq? Where did this particularly obnoxious rodent come from? Chas you leave the cellar door open again? We're gonna take away your keys if you can't remember to lock up old man. Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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24-10-2013, 05:19 PM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(24-10-2013 02:06 PM)Jasozz Wrote:  
(24-10-2013 02:03 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  That's pretty much what I decided. There areas of Judaism (some catholic rituals too) for example that are interesting to me, but overall it was invented just like everything else. I take from everything the things that speak to me personally, like some rituals. I haven't any issue with having a completely clean home on Friday for example, and not doing much on Saturday...

Not for a religious bent, but because I feel sometimes there just isn't enough time be restful and just enjoy my family. So the idea of the Jewish Shabbat, without all the silly god trappings, is on a cursory level compelling. There's so much technology in our lives, to set aside a period of time where there's none...is really nice.

But that works for me.

Sure. And most religions have at least SOMETHING thats worth taking away from it. I just can't really define myself with a belief, like I had done with Christianity, unless I can wholeheartedly accept everything about it, including its core beliefs. That makes it tough to just believe in atheism, because of our lack of definite knowledge about the beginning of the universe.

Atheism isn't a belief or a belief system. It doesn't mean to answer questions about how the universe was started. Atheism is just a nonbelief in god(s). As we learn more about abiogensis the god idea becomes smaller and more irrelevant. Just like when we discover more about our own evolution and that we still are in a species in transition. It is far more elegant and complex than just saying gawd did it.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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24-10-2013, 05:24 PM
RE: Help through Deconversion

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24-10-2013, 05:31 PM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(24-10-2013 05:24 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  
(24-10-2013 01:22 PM)Jasozz Wrote:  I like this point. Smile

It always bothered me how all the support I'd ever get in life, whether over religion or not, would be that I should pray on it or reconnect with God.

Hardship in life is going to cause grief whether you believe or not, and I had to learn it was time to face it on my own.

Life is by no means any easier as an atheist... I suppose big part of belief is relieving some of the burden, but sooner or later we all have to take responsibility for ourselves.

Okay, so there's no overall "purpose" to life, initially that might seem depressing, but now you're free to follow your own purpose...

In religion you are expected to live up to something... As Christopher Hitchens put it - "created sick and commanded to be well".

With atheism, you don't have to live up to anything (besides basic morality/law), you can live more or less any way you like.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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24-10-2013, 05:35 PM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(24-10-2013 05:19 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(24-10-2013 02:06 PM)Jasozz Wrote:  Sure. And most religions have at least SOMETHING thats worth taking away from it. I just can't really define myself with a belief, like I had done with Christianity, unless I can wholeheartedly accept everything about it, including its core beliefs. That makes it tough to just believe in atheism, because of our lack of definite knowledge about the beginning of the universe.

Atheism isn't a belief or a belief system. It doesn't mean to answer questions about how the universe was started. Atheism is just a nonbelief in god(s). As we learn more about abiogensis the god idea becomes smaller and more irrelevant. Just like when we discover more about our own evolution and that we still are in a species in transition. It is far more elegant and complex than just saying gawd did it.

Jasozz if you are looking for a belief system (non-religious) a lot of us Atheists go with Secular humanism as a basis for morals and ethics. American Humanist Association is a great secular organization that helps a lot of people. Might be worth looking into.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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24-10-2013, 07:22 PM
RE: Help through Deconversion
Jasozz,

I proceeded directly to agnostic atheism from roman catholicism. While i toyed with the idea od buddhism and new age mysticism i realized that both of them will still stifle my pursuit of knowledge. We may glean something about empathy from some religions though. But this is after very severe filtering of their dogma. Im also a firm believer in secular humanism. Glad to know that we are of help.

To everybody else (except the haters) : i just want to thank you for always providing the support for us deconverts. It has been of immense value to us. Smile


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24-10-2013, 08:23 PM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(24-10-2013 08:42 AM)Jasozz Wrote:  Did you wind up as atheist or agnostic?

I suppose I am agnostic. I don't believe that any of the deities I have read of exist but I don't have a sound a priori argument that all conceptions of deity are logically impossible so I settle on admitting that I just don't know.

Quote:Did you explore other religions?

Yes and they are as flawed or more so than Christianity.

Quote:It always goes back to the unexplained parts on both sides, mainly with creation.

But isn't theistic cosmology unsatisfying in that regard also? Although a transcendent and infinite person is logically coherent it is just as mystifying and ineffable as the state that prevailed before the physical universe was created (if such a state actually existed). I get that strange vertigo when I try to think about the transcendent "omni-max" God just as I do when I try to think about either a temporally infinite physical universe or the state that preceded creatio ex nihilo. My "gut" tells me that both explanations are utteryly confusing. William Lane Craig's apologetic response is that we don't need to have an explanation of the explanation to have a genuine explanation, i.e. we don't need to have an explanation of God in order to accept God as an explanation. That is true, e.g. I can explain the failure of my computer with regard to the failure of some part without having an explanation of the cause of the failure of that part. But even though I may not be able to explain why the component failed I at least know what an explanation of why the component failed will look like, I can at least comprehend what kind of explanation I would be dealing with. That is not the case when I think about the transcendent omni-max God, a temporally infinite physical universe or a genuine universe from nothing (Krauss' universe from nothing isn't really a nothing, a quantum vacuum isn't nothing). In view of those considerations my net confusion level is not reduced by a theistic cosmology--I would be equally bewildered but all of my bewilderment would now be concentrated on the omni-max deity and its temporal infinitude.

Quote:Can you be happy with agnosticism?

Agnosticism is a good fit with critical skpeticism. There is nothing wrong with admitting ignorance. I don't know what the origin of the physical universe is and I don't know if there is some yet to be defined transecendent person out there. Admitting ignorance is better than pretending you have all the answers. You shouldn't feel compelled to have all the answers in order to "qualify" to reject Christianity.
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25-10-2013, 08:27 AM
RE: Help through Deconversion
Thanks for the advice everyone.

Revenant, I'm definitely going to do some reading on Secular humanism, it seems like a good place to start at the very least.
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25-10-2013, 09:15 AM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(24-10-2013 05:10 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(23-10-2013 06:06 PM)Jasozz Wrote:  I joined a Men's group that was all about being a better man/husband/etc., which I loved, because I was still CULTURALLY a Christian, and to this day I still deeply value the teachings of serving and loving others unconditionally, as well as a great deal of other non-deity-related teachings.

Chas thinks it's silly but there are Christian atheists, and Jewish atheists, and Buddhist atheists. And there are probably Muslim atheists but they risk their life by admitting it so they get a pass. Tongue

Silly? No. Oxymoronic? Possibly.
If those terms mean anything, they are cultural terms.
Someone grows up in a culture that has some majority religion and world view but rejects the concept of gods while internalizing the mores.
Then, sure, it might be a descriptive term.

Quote:
(23-10-2013 06:06 PM)Jasozz Wrote:  4. (The Big One) I now feel like life is pointless. Recently I can't get excited about anything because my mind just jumps to "it won't matter and you're going to die eventually". I've also developed a MASSIVE fear of my own mortality since this deconversion thing kicked into high-gear, due to A) being afraid of being wrong and there being an eternal punishment and B) feeling the brevity of life now that I've started really thinking about it.

The point is that now you are responsible for making your own point, creating your own meaning, understanding and fully appreciating that meaning is only to be found in the temporary. The eternal negates the possibility of meaning while the transitory exalts it. Think you'll be fine.

(24-10-2013 06:40 AM)excubitor Wrote:  A fear of God and a fear of hell is a good thing. This will save you if it causes you to repent and turn back to God.

Da' fuq? Where did this particularly obnoxious rodent come from? Chas you leave the cellar door open again? We're gonna take away your keys if you can't remember to lock up old man. Tongue

I think I was on a coffee break. Drinking Beverage

No, come to think of it, I gave those keys back. Not my job, man. No

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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