Help through Deconversion
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29-10-2013, 07:25 AM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(29-10-2013 02:29 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(23-10-2013 06:06 PM)Jasozz Wrote:  Hello everyone, my name is Jason. I'm going through what I consider to be a deconversion process and its really screwed up my life. Its a long story, so keep reading for the backstory, or skip down towards the bottom for my questions at least. I appreciate everyone's time.

I'm posting here because I've found myself in a rough spot and was hoping some people here may have had similar experiences to my own.

I was born into and raised in a Christian family. My parents are fantastic, and raised me with great values into the well-rounded, loving, ambitious man I am today. I always felt at home in the churches we attended, and consider many members of the congregation as extensions of my family. I was in youth groups, went on mission trips, participated in VBS and drama, and loved all of it. I never had any times in church where I felt like my life was being run by my religion, or felt like I was trapped in it, so my thoughts and feelings do not reflect a feeling of bitterness towards the church.

The fact of the matter is, around 8th Grade or so I got into that critical-thinking part of my life where I started to question alot more, and around this time I finally read the Bible cover to cover, and I kind of realized that it didn't really make sense to me anymore.

I started to notice the discrepancies in the religion, such as asking myself how it is fair for God to judge me, who was raised in a loving Christian family, and also someone who grew up in a Hindu culture loving that religion, or in a Kiberan slum, knowing nothing but pain and sorrow for most of their life. How is that fair to begin with, coming from an all-loving God, and how is it fair for them to be judged equally on their eternal fate? There's many other things that I picked up on, but I'm not here to discuss Christianity or try to prove/disprove it.

With doubt, came my engrained fear of Hell, and I told myself that I was just going through a phase, and kept going to church and tried not to think about it.
Through high school, my doubts grew and my attraction to church dwindled. By my sophomore year, I could no longer, with a clear conscience, say to someone that I believed in God. I graduated and went to college, and basically stopped going to church. During this time I sort of blocked out the issue altogether. Thinking about it only caused anxiety (something I suffer from to begin with) and as much as I tried, I couldn't get myself to decide either way. The ONLY thing tethering me to Christianity was my fear of Hell and punishment, as well as the pain of losing or hurting my family if I became the ONLY non-Christian in our entire family, but that wasn't enough to make me want to keep going to church.

After a rough breakup and some pretty deep depression, I thought connecting with a church might help me out a little, but unfortunately I found I could no longer get engaged with the church. I joined a Men's group that was all about being a better man/husband/etc., which I loved, because I was still CULTURALLY a Christian, and to this day I still deeply value the teachings of serving and loving others unconditionally, as well as a great deal of other non-deity-related teachings. This wasn't enough to light my spiritual flame though, and I stopped attending and went back to ignoring the issue.

Fast forward a year, and I've met an amazing girl. By far one of the sweetest and most amazing women I've ever met, with a heart for everyone. However, like the other girls I'd dated, she was an atheist. This didn't bother me at all, because I knew that I wasn't a hardcore Christian to begin with.

// PROBLEM STARTS HERE //

However, one little argument kicked my life into one of the worst rollercoaster rides I've ever been on.

We were discussing something about creationism in schools, and something she said took a stab at Christianity, and I immediately went on the defense to defend Christianity, and realized I had nothing to say. I love my family, and I love the church and the people I grew up with, and I have a servant's heart, and love volunteer work, disaster relief, you name it. Yet at that moment, I had no desire to defend the theistic parts of Christianity. I had some of the worst anxiety attacks of my life the next few days, realizing that I didn't believe in Christianity anymore, wondering what was going on.
Was I going to Hell? Was there a Hell? How do I tell my family? Is this my girlfriend's fault? Is this my fault?

Its been about two months since then and I've done a great deal of reading and thinking on the matter.

I've concluded that I no longer accept the Bible as truth, and haven't for a long time. While there are some great lessons in the Bible, overall, I do not believe in the Christian doctrine.

Now, I'm facing a lot of huge, looming fears with deconversion.

1. What if I'm wrong and there is still a God/Hell?

2. How do I tell my entirely Christian family that I don't believe anymore?

3. If I have children, how do I raise them? I know that my experiences in the church and the mission field had a huge part in defining who I am today, and while I don't believe in that God anymore, how do I raise my children with those values while dealing with a family that is Christian?

4. (The Big One) I now feel like life is pointless. Recently I can't get excited about anything because my mind just jumps to "it won't matter and you're going to die eventually". I've also developed a MASSIVE fear of my own mortality since this deconversion thing kicked into high-gear, due to A) being afraid of being wrong and there being an eternal punishment and B) feeling the brevity of life now that I've started really thinking about it.

If anyone out there has had a similar experience and can help, I could really use the advice. I do not think Christianity is stupid nor do I hate Christians. I love my family and I want this to be the least painful as possible.

Thanks for reading and sorry it was long-winded.

Hey J, you've been done over by a church. You've had your individuality and your self-esteem deliberately crushed. You need to stop looking at them as friends and recognise them as the enemy (not necessarily the individuals, but the "system.") Have a read of this and take from it what you will...
http://www.markfulton.org/the-psychologi...ristianity

I've had 20 years experience treating people with depression and anxiety. You've had a lot of really good advice here so far already. I'll throw in my $.02 worth. Recognise that it is also "biochemical" when you become unwell with anxiety. The western world is rife with subtle nutritional deficiencies and they're a significant factor in nearly all cases of depression and anxiety. I strongly suggest you

1. take magnesium powder every night. Dissolve it in water. Most chemists sell it.
2. take zinc solution with it. Triple the recommended daily amount and do this for at least a month. (Forget zinc tablets or magnesium tablets, they're almost useless.)
3. Take a high dose multi vitamin B every day.
4. Take at least 5000 international units of vitamin D a day for a month.
5. eat lots of fresh fruit and fresh vegetables and avoid processed food. Take high doses of Omega threes
6. try to have a cardiovascular workout for at least half an hour every day.

Your brain will love you for it and you're anxiety and depression will improve dramatically.

I appreciate all of the advice I've been receiving here, and especially this, as I suffer from anxiety and depression on a general, although mild scale. Is there a particular reason that the zinc and magnesium tablets dont work? I am currently taking those daily.
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29-10-2013, 08:22 AM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(29-10-2013 07:25 AM)Jasozz Wrote:  
(29-10-2013 02:29 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hey J, you've been done over by a church. You've had your individuality and your self-esteem deliberately crushed. You need to stop looking at them as friends and recognise them as the enemy (not necessarily the individuals, but the "system.") Have a read of this and take from it what you will...
http://www.markfulton.org/the-psychologi...ristianity

I've had 20 years experience treating people with depression and anxiety. You've had a lot of really good advice here so far already. I'll throw in my $.02 worth. Recognise that it is also "biochemical" when you become unwell with anxiety. The western world is rife with subtle nutritional deficiencies and they're a significant factor in nearly all cases of depression and anxiety. I strongly suggest you

1. take magnesium powder every night. Dissolve it in water. Most chemists sell it.
2. take zinc solution with it. Triple the recommended daily amount and do this for at least a month. (Forget zinc tablets or magnesium tablets, they're almost useless.)
3. Take a high dose multi vitamin B every day.
4. Take at least 5000 international units of vitamin D a day for a month.
5. eat lots of fresh fruit and fresh vegetables and avoid processed food. Take high doses of Omega threes
6. try to have a cardiovascular workout for at least half an hour every day.

Your brain will love you for it and you're anxiety and depression will improve dramatically.

I appreciate all of the advice I've been receiving here, and especially this, as I suffer from anxiety and depression on a general, although mild scale. Is there a particular reason that the zinc and magnesium tablets dont work? I am currently taking those daily.

The tablets pass through your system without being fully broken down. A solution is easier to process and you get closer to 90% of it absorbed. Tablets are just a waste of money.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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29-10-2013, 08:23 AM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(29-10-2013 08:22 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(29-10-2013 07:25 AM)Jasozz Wrote:  I appreciate all of the advice I've been receiving here, and especially this, as I suffer from anxiety and depression on a general, although mild scale. Is there a particular reason that the zinc and magnesium tablets dont work? I am currently taking those daily.

The tablets pass through your system without being fully broken down. A solution is easier to process and you get closer to 90% of it absorbed. Tablets are just a waste of money.

Ah, okay, makes sense.

This is why I went to college for art Wink
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29-10-2013, 11:33 AM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(23-10-2013 06:06 PM)Jasozz Wrote:  I'm posting here because I've found myself in a rough spot and was hoping some people here may have had similar experiences to my own.
My experience was very similar to most of yours, except I was older when I came to terms with it.


(23-10-2013 06:06 PM)Jasozz Wrote:  I was born into and raised in a Christian family. My parents are fantastic, and raised me with great values into the well-rounded, loving, ambitious man I am today. I always felt at home in the churches we attended, and consider many members of the congregation as extensions of my family. I was in youth groups, went on mission trips, participated in VBS and drama, and loved all of it. I never had any times in church where I felt like my life was being run by my religion, or felt like I was trapped in it, so my thoughts and feelings do not reflect a feeling of bitterness towards the church.

The fact of the matter is, around 8th Grade or so I got into that critical-thinking part of my life where I started to question alot more, and around this time I finally read the Bible cover to cover, and I kind of realized that it didn't really make sense to me anymore.

I started to notice the discrepancies in the religion, such as asking myself how it is fair for God to judge me, who was raised in a loving Christian family, and also someone who grew up in a Hindu culture loving that religion, or in a Kiberan slum, knowing nothing but pain and sorrow for most of their life. How is that fair to begin with, coming from an all-loving God, and how is it fair for them to be judged equally on their eternal fate? There's many other things that I picked up on, but I'm not here to discuss Christianity or try to prove/disprove it.

With doubt, came my engrained fear of Hell, and I told myself that I was just going through a phase, and kept going to church and tried not to think about it.
This much is pretty much my story, except I didn't start seriously questioning it until my mid twenties, and didn't come to terms with it until I was about thirty.

For me, first I had a hard time seeing an all-loving god in the world around me and in the Bible. Eventually, I realized I really didn't believe it. I tried to make myself and couldn't. It took me six months of not believing before I could admit to myself that I didn't. I was quite scared of hell for a while, until I realized that I'd never lost any sleep worrying about going to Muslim hell for not following the five pillars of Islam. Christianity doesn't bring anything more authoritative to the table than Islam, yet I was only scared of Christian hell because that's how I was raised. Any time I felt lingering doubts creep back, I'd just ask myself "why not Islam or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?"


(23-10-2013 06:06 PM)Jasozz Wrote:  1. What if I'm wrong and there is still a God/Hell?
What if you were wrong and you go to Muslim hell? What if you are wrong, and the real god punishes believers for blind faith and rewards skepticism?

Truth be told, there are an infinite number of non-falsifiable theories out there regarding the afterlife, and Christianity is just one of them.


(23-10-2013 06:06 PM)Jasozz Wrote:  2. How do I tell my entirely Christian family that I don't believe anymore?
That depends. How do you think your family would take it?

I don't talk to my family much about it, including my wife. I was Christian when we got married, and she still is. Oddly enough, I talk to her sisters and their husbands about it much more, as all four of them are atheist.


(23-10-2013 06:06 PM)Jasozz Wrote:  3. If I have children, how do I raise them? I know that my experiences in the church and the mission field had a huge part in defining who I am today, and while I don't believe in that God anymore, how do I raise my children with those values while dealing with a family that is Christian?
That's up to you and their other parent. There are plenty of reasons to behave in a moral fashion that don't rely on God or even on objective morality.


(23-10-2013 06:06 PM)Jasozz Wrote:  4. (The Big One) I now feel like life is pointless. Recently I can't get excited about anything because my mind just jumps to "it won't matter and you're going to die eventually". I've also developed a MASSIVE fear of my own mortality since this deconversion thing kicked into high-gear, due to A) being afraid of being wrong and there being an eternal punishment and B) feeling the brevity of life now that I've started really thinking about it.
Well, it is weird to go from assuming you're immortal, you will live forever in paradise, and that you are part of a grand plan to having none of that. What I can tell you is that over time, you will start to look at things differently. You're still getting used to this, and you are understandably looking at a lot of it through a Christian lens. It's hard to change the way you look at things.

That being said, yes, life is short, and it is full of plenty of good things. Look for ways to find joy in this life and try to leave the world a better place than you found it.


Good luck. Be patient, open-minded, and honest.
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29-10-2013, 12:00 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2013 12:06 PM by Skeptic Gamer.)
RE: Help through Deconversion
No doubt, you have a good 13 pages of solid answers, but if you're going for a majority thought, I'll throw my 2 cents into this mix (in italics).



1. What if I'm wrong and there is still a God/Hell?

A truly benevolent god wouldn't send you to Hell if you're a good person. If there is a hell and good people go there, you'll be in good company. Einstein and Carl Sagan are there, after all. And furthermore, which hell/underworld do you fear? Christian, Muslim, Norse, Greek, Zoroastrian, Hindu...? Get the point? Fear not hell, either a benevolent Cthulhu will send you to paradise for being a good person, or you'll join all the rest of the good non-believers who have no doubt made it a better place by now. The Christian version of Satan, after all, understood the importance of intelligence, reason, and wisdom.


2. How do I tell my entirely Christian family that I don't believe anymore?

Can't help you on this one. I never had to make that big revelation myself. My Mom rather always understood that I was a non-believer. My Dad only recently discovered and we just kind of ignored the matter. I don't have much time left with him, and I'm fine just ignoring the issue.



3. If I have children, how do I raise them? I know that my experiences in the church and the mission field had a huge part in defining who I am today, and while I don't believe in that God anymore, how do I raise my children with those values while dealing with a family that is Christian?

Wait until you have children, then raise them to think for themselves. I raise my kid to think for himself, and he's named after an ancient deity that specialized in wisdom, so he has no choice but to live knowing that there has always been more than one god. Raising children isn't something that can be magically planned, despite all the people who foolishly think so. What you think you can teach your kid probably won't work, and it is a constantly evolving challenge. I stick with the simple concept of having him think for himself and to have simple empathy--the golden rule is not a bad one in this challenge.

"Would you want someone to do that to you?"

"No..."

"Then don't do that crap again. Now you know how much it sucks."

Then take away his DS for the weekend.




4. (The Big One) I now feel like life is pointless. Recently I can't get excited about anything because my mind just jumps to "it won't matter and you're going to die eventually". I've also developed a MASSIVE fear of my own mortality since this deconversion thing kicked into high-gear, due to A) being afraid of being wrong and there being an eternal punishment and B) feeling the brevity of life now that I've started really thinking about it.Confused

Life has only as much point and value and reason and meaning as you are willing to give it. Take your knowledge that death happens once and that you only have this life to make it count. There is no reason to fear death for the individual who lives well.

...or for the person who successfully transfers his consciousness into an invincible super android of some kind. Which is my plan. I don't necessarily fear death, I just don't want to go before I've learned everything there is to learn.

At any rate, life is only pointless if you make it that way.

This is the signature.

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29-10-2013, 12:17 PM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(29-10-2013 12:00 PM)Skeptic Gamer Wrote:  No doubt, you have a good 13 pages of solid answers, but if you're going for a majority thought, I'll throw my 2 cents into this mix (in italics).



1. What if I'm wrong and there is still a God/Hell?

A truly benevolent god wouldn't send you to Hell if you're a good person. If there is a hell and good people go there, you'll be in good company. Einstein and Carl Sagan are there, after all. And furthermore, which hell/underworld do you fear? Christian, Muslim, Norse, Greek, Zoroastrian, Hindu...? Get the point? Fear not hell, either a benevolent Cthulhu will send you to paradise for being a good person, or you'll join all the rest of the good non-believers who have no doubt made it a better place by now. The Christian version of Satan, after all, understood the importance of intelligence, reason, and wisdom.


2. How do I tell my entirely Christian family that I don't believe anymore?

Can't help you on this one. I never had to make that big revelation myself. My Mom rather always understood that I was a non-believer. My Dad only recently discovered and we just kind of ignored the matter. I don't have much time left with him, and I'm fine just ignoring the issue.



3. If I have children, how do I raise them? I know that my experiences in the church and the mission field had a huge part in defining who I am today, and while I don't believe in that God anymore, how do I raise my children with those values while dealing with a family that is Christian?

Wait until you have children, then raise them to think for themselves. I raise my kid to think for himself, and he's named after an ancient deity that specialized in wisdom, so he has no choice but to live knowing that there has always been more than one god. Raising children isn't something that can be magically planned, despite all the people who foolishly think so. What you think you can teach your kid probably won't work, and it is a constantly evolving challenge. I stick with the simple concept of having him think for himself and to have simple empathy--the golden rule is not a bad one in this challenge.

"Would you want someone to do that to you?"

"No..."

"Then don't do that crap again. Now you know how much it sucks."

Then take away his DS for the weekend.




4. (The Big One) I now feel like life is pointless. Recently I can't get excited about anything because my mind just jumps to "it won't matter and you're going to die eventually". I've also developed a MASSIVE fear of my own mortality since this deconversion thing kicked into high-gear, due to A) being afraid of being wrong and there being an eternal punishment and B) feeling the brevity of life now that I've started really thinking about it.Confused

Life has only as much point and value and reason and meaning as you are willing to give it. Take your knowledge that death happens once and that you only have this life to make it count. There is no reason to fear death for the individual who lives well.

...or for the person who successfully transfers his consciousness into an invincible super android of some kind. Which is my plan. I don't necessarily fear death, I just don't want to go before I've learned everything there is to learn.

At any rate, life is only pointless if you make it that way.

What is your son's name?
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29-10-2013, 03:57 PM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(29-10-2013 08:22 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(29-10-2013 07:25 AM)Jasozz Wrote:  I appreciate all of the advice I've been receiving here, and especially this, as I suffer from anxiety and depression on a general, although mild scale. Is there a particular reason that the zinc and magnesium tablets dont work? I am currently taking those daily.

The tablets pass through your system without being fully broken down. A solution is easier to process and you get closer to 90% of it absorbed. Tablets are just a waste of money.

Yes, this is true.... particularly for the common and cheap forms that zinc and magnesium are usually sold to the public. The tablets are not entirely useless, but if you're going to take supplements it's best to take ones that actually get into your body in sufficient quantities to make a difference.

If you take good doses of highly absorbable magnesium people usually feel better within one or two days. Zinc, however takes longer to replenish so it'll be a week or two before you notice improvements because of the zinc. Magnesium is particularly good for reducing anxiety and I didn't sleep and it was certainly get rid of any muscular cramps if you have those. Zinc will improve your feelings of depression, the sense of taste, Your smell, your libido, and will improve your immune system. Down the track it is also good for your eyes. It will also help prevent prostatism and cancer of the prostate.

I live in one of the sunniest parts of the world (Sunshine Coast, Australia) and two out of three of my patients that I do a blood test for vitamin D D deficiency have sub optimal levels. That's why I suggest you take 5000 international units of vit D for a month. Too much won't hurt you. Vitamin D is also extremely important for your health in all sorts of ways, but as far as the brain goes, we know suicide rates go up in Europe during winter and it's probably because people tend to be more depressed when vitamin D deficient.
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29-10-2013, 04:28 PM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(29-10-2013 03:57 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(29-10-2013 08:22 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The tablets pass through your system without being fully broken down. A solution is easier to process and you get closer to 90% of it absorbed. Tablets are just a waste of money.

Yes, this is true.... particularly for the common and cheap forms that zinc and magnesium are usually sold to the public. The tablets are not entirely useless, but if you're going to take supplements it's best to take ones that actually get into your body in sufficient quantities to make a difference.

If you take good doses of highly absorbable magnesium people usually feel better within one or two days. Zinc, however takes longer to replenish so it'll be a week or two before you notice improvements because of the zinc. Magnesium is particularly good for reducing anxiety and I didn't sleep and it was certainly get rid of any muscular cramps if you have those. Zinc will improve your feelings of depression, the sense of taste, Your smell, your libido, and will improve your immune system. Down the track it is also good for your eyes. It will also help prevent prostatism and cancer of the prostate.

I live in one of the sunniest parts of the world (Sunshine Coast, Australia) and two out of three of my patients that I do a blood test for vitamin D D deficiency have sub optimal levels. That's why I suggest you take 5000 international units of vit D for a month. Too much won't hurt you. Vitamin D is also extremely important for your health in all sorts of ways, but as far as the brain goes, we know suicide rates go up in Europe during winter and it's probably because people tend to be more depressed when vitamin D deficient.

They call it Seasonal Depression here. But yes listen to the good Doctor here (Actual MD so the man knows that of which he speaks) all very sound advice.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-10-2013, 02:58 AM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(30-10-2013 02:12 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(29-10-2013 02:29 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I've had 20 years experience treating people with depression and anxiety. You've had a lot of really good advice here so far already. I'll throw in my $.02 worth. Recognise that it is also "biochemical" when you become unwell with anxiety. The western world is rife with subtle nutritional deficiencies and they're a significant factor in nearly all cases of depression and anxiety. I strongly suggest you

1. take magnesium powder every night. Dissolve it in water. Most chemists sell it.
2. take zinc solution with it. Triple the recommended daily amount and do this for at least a month. (Forget zinc tablets or magnesium tablets, they're almost useless.)
3. Take a high dose multi vitamin B every day.
4. Take at least 5000 international units of vitamin D a day for a month.
5. eat lots of fresh fruit and fresh vegetables and avoid processed food. Take high doses of Omega threes
6. try to have a cardiovascular workout for at least half an hour every day.

Your brain will love you for it and you're anxiety and depression will improve dramatically.

Pseudoscience.

Yes, depression and anxiety are indeed biochemical but there is no evidence in the form of double-blind placebo controlled clinical trials that taking doses of vitamins and minerals that are orders of magnitude above the RDA will improve anxiety and depression. Whatever benefit--if any at all--can be realised by just taking them at the RDA.

There is also no evidence that "nutritional deficiencies [are] a significant factor in nearly all cases of depression and anxiety".

There is one Cochrane systematic review of nutritional supplementation in relation to postnatal depression and it finds no evidence for the efficiacy of nutritional supplementation in preventing or treating postnatal depression. See here.

Hasn't EBM reached Queensland yet?

When I got older, I started to get a couple of small scaly patches of skin on my otherwise devastatingly handsome face. I never talked to my doctor about this because I had a remedy that I would apply to those patches every couple of weeks which took care of it. After I started using that remedy for a while I learned from a nurse that works with a dermatologist that it probably wasn't a good ideal.

Anyways my doctor told me to start taking 6000 units of vitamin D a day because my level of that vitamin was too low....I followed his advice and that skin problem vanished. I haven't had to apply that remedy since. That was proof to me that taking vitamins help.

Mark, I think I will give your advice a shot and try zinc and magnesium. Why is it bad to take it in pill form?
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30-10-2013, 06:06 PM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(30-10-2013 02:58 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(30-10-2013 02:12 AM)Chippy Wrote:  Pseudoscience.

Yes, depression and anxiety are indeed biochemical but there is no evidence in the form of double-blind placebo controlled clinical trials that taking doses of vitamins and minerals that are orders of magnitude above the RDA will improve anxiety and depression. Whatever benefit--if any at all--can be realised by just taking them at the RDA.

There is also no evidence that "nutritional deficiencies [are] a significant factor in nearly all cases of depression and anxiety".

There is one Cochrane systematic review of nutritional supplementation in relation to postnatal depression and it finds no evidence for the efficiacy of nutritional supplementation in preventing or treating postnatal depression. See here.

Hasn't EBM reached Queensland yet?

When I got older, I started to get a couple of small scaly patches of skin on my otherwise devastatingly handsome face. I never talked to my doctor about this because I had a remedy that I would apply to those patches every couple of weeks which took care of it. After I started using that remedy for a while I learned from a nurse that works with a dermatologist that it probably wasn't a good ideal.

Anyways my doctor told me to start taking 6000 units of vitamin D a day because my level of that vitamin was too low....I followed his advice and that skin problem vanished. I haven't had to apply that remedy since. That was proof to me that taking vitamins help.

Mark, I think I will give your advice a shot and try zinc and magnesium. Why is it bad to take it in pill form?

Hi HJ, see post 127.
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