Help with an annoying theist friend?
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02-07-2013, 09:13 PM
Help with an annoying theist friend?
New here, and usually I wouldn't post something so immediately (I prefer to read endless threads for weeks before I stick my foot in) but I recently had a friend throw such a convoluted, badly worded argument at me that I need help sorting it. Maybe it's the late hour, maybe my general annoyance that they decided to start this debate on a Tuesday, I dunno. Hopefully someone feels like helping me out on here.

Here's what I received:

Atheism is based on something coming from nothing as it's foundation is based on the Darwinian logic of evolution. The absurdity of atheistic logic from it's root base is vanity and purely situational. Relativistic rationalism to try to define truth, justice, and right or wrong from their perspective is comical when fact is, they do not believe in absolutes or in a higher truth than their own vain imagination clothed in the idea of survival of the fittest. Since their foundation stone of something coming from nothing from a time plus chance hyper-evoltionary process, then by logical conclusion, they have no right to advoacte anything as true or not true, values and justice are merely self-delusional rationalism, and the only concept of truth is an elitist self appointed collecdtive group of like minded something from nothing survival of the fittest, ban together, gain power and then force their views and relativistic values on the rest of us. You can not have a value system that originates from something coming from nothing.

Anyone feel like diving in? I'd appreciate it! If not I'll be tackling him tomorrow, I can't think anymore tonight. :-)
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02-07-2013, 10:33 PM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2013 10:43 PM by BryanS.)
RE: Help with an annoying theist friend?
(02-07-2013 09:13 PM)Rauri Wrote:  New here, and usually I wouldn't post something so immediately (I prefer to read endless threads for weeks before I stick my foot in) but I recently had a friend throw such a convoluted, badly worded argument at me that I need help sorting it. Maybe it's the late hour, maybe my general annoyance that they decided to start this debate on a Tuesday, I dunno. Hopefully someone feels like helping me out on here.

Here's what I received:

Quote:Atheism is based on something coming from nothing as it's foundation is based on the Darwinian logic of evolution.

Atheism is not dependent on Darwin's theory of natural selection. No less than the Catholic Pope acknowledges that the Theory of Evolution is sound science. And the big bang theory was first formulated by a priest named Georges Lemaître. The Biologist who headed up the human genome project, Collins, is an out and out Christian who has written a book where he explains how he reconciles evolution with his faith.


Quote:The absurdity of atheistic logic from it's root base is vanity and purely situational. Relativistic rationalism to try to define truth, justice, and right or wrong from their perspective is comical when fact is, they do not believe in absolutes or in a higher truth than their own vain imagination clothed in the idea of survival of the fittest. Since their foundation stone of something coming from nothing from a time plus chance hyper-evoltionary process, then by logical conclusion, they have no right to advoacte anything as true or not true, values and justice are merely self-delusional rationalism, and the only concept of truth is an elitist self appointed collecdtive group of like minded something from nothing survival of the fittest, ban together, gain power and then force their views and relativistic values on the rest of us. You can not have a value system that originates from something coming from nothing.

Quick side note--evolution is not blind chance. Natural selection is not natural chance.

See my recent post just a few moments ago on how to deal with the idea that god==objective morality:
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid333023


Quote:Anyone feel like diving in? I'd appreciate it! If not I'll be tackling him tomorrow, I can't think anymore tonight. :-)

Edit:just added missing quote tag for formatting
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02-07-2013, 11:30 PM
RE: Help with an annoying theist friend?
Theists are always trying to point out that we don't know how life began and therefore we must be wrong. Even though they don't know how god began yet hold him to be real. I have found that in this type of argument it is better to focus the debate down to a particular religion than something so general as if God exists at all. If we can get them to see the logic in their own religion, then the feet fall out from under their entire argument when they realize that they themselves have believed a lie. It is very hard to counter the existence of god directly. But defeating Christianity and especially Christian morals is a much easier task.

"Your mind is twice a valuable as your body. And your ears are twice as valuable as your mouth. People will pay you based on which you use." - A very smart old lawyer
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02-07-2013, 11:39 PM
RE: Help with an annoying theist friend?
Tell him or her that you would gladly reply when they start making true statements.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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02-07-2013, 11:57 PM
RE: Help with an annoying theist friend?
(02-07-2013 09:13 PM)Rauri Wrote:  New here, and usually I wouldn't post something so immediately (I prefer to read endless threads for weeks before I stick my foot in) but I recently had a friend throw such a convoluted, badly worded argument at me that I need help sorting it. Maybe it's the late hour, maybe my general annoyance that they decided to start this debate on a Tuesday, I dunno. Hopefully someone feels like helping me out on here.

Here's what I received:

Atheism is based on something coming from nothing as it's foundation is based on the Darwinian logic of evolution. The absurdity of atheistic logic from it's root base is vanity and purely situational. Relativistic rationalism to try to define truth, justice, and right or wrong from their perspective is comical when fact is, they do not believe in absolutes or in a higher truth than their own vain imagination clothed in the idea of survival of the fittest. Since their foundation stone of something coming from nothing from a time plus chance hyper-evoltionary process, then by logical conclusion, they have no right to advoacte anything as true or not true, values and justice are merely self-delusional rationalism, and the only concept of truth is an elitist self appointed collecdtive group of like minded something from nothing survival of the fittest, ban together, gain power and then force their views and relativistic values on the rest of us. You can not have a value system that originates from something coming from nothing.

Anyone feel like diving in? I'd appreciate it! If not I'll be tackling him tomorrow, I can't think anymore tonight. :-)

"Every word you just said is patently false. You obviously don't understand what atheism is. You want to pretend you do, that's up to you, but don't drag me into it."

You can leave it at that. Or if you're feeling a bit less snippy, you can just make that your thesis and carry on further with any or all of the following themes:

(1) Atheism is not dependent on or based on evolution. It was around long before Darwin.
(2) Evolution is not "something came from nothing" or "random chance". (Well, okay, random in a strict mathematical sense, but not in the everyday sense.)
(3) Atheists CAN believe in absolutes (but not all do).
(4) Positing the existence of a god doesn't actually address any of the "problems" you describe in atheism. It just adds one more relative, rather than absolute, perspective. If something is moral just because God says it is (eg, rape), then that's relative to what God's saying, and not an absolute. (And if it was an absolute, it'd be a pretty horrifying absolute.)
(5) For that matter, why's it so awful for an atheist to say rape is wrong if it isn't awful for a Christian to say the same thing? Why can't atheists have morality? I mean they're saying the same things on something like 90% of the moral topics (don't kill, rape, steal, slander), so what the hell?
(6) It's possible for someone to believe that the evolutionary process brought about life as we know it today, or not, without basing a value system on that. The two need have nothing to do with each other AT ALL.
(7) He needs to stop regurgitating WLC's verbal turdage (I think that's WLC, isn't it? Either way, he shouldn't listen to WLC) and come up with his own thoughts for a change. Ideally, these should be based on an actual understanding of atheism, rather than just making up prejudiced crap suitable only for spoonfeeding to bigots.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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02-07-2013, 11:59 PM
RE: Help with an annoying theist friend?
Here's some help: get new friends. Big Grin

Others have already taken that "argument" apart, but the gist of it reads, "I'm right, you're wrong, na-na na na-na!" Complete with exposed tongue. One cannot really "argue" with that kind of mindset.

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03-07-2013, 12:22 AM
RE: Help with an annoying theist friend?
Quote:Atheism is based on something coming from nothing as it's foundation is based on the Darwinian logic of evolution. The absurdity of atheistic logic from it's root base is vanity and purely situational. Relativistic rationalism to try to define truth, justice, and right or wrong from their perspective is comical when fact is, they do not believe in absolutes or in a higher truth than their own vain imagination clothed in the idea of survival of the fittest. Since their foundation stone of something coming from nothing from a time plus chance hyper-evoltionary process, then by logical conclusion, they have no right to advoacte anything as true or not true, values and justice are merely self-delusional rationalism, and the only concept of truth is an elitist self appointed collecdtive group of like minded something from nothing survival of the fittest, ban together, gain power and then force their views and relativistic values on the rest of us. You can not have a value system that originates from something coming from nothing.
To call this an argument is to give its author too much credit. It's not an argument but a rant. It's basically just one big ad hominem attack.

For example, the meaning of the statement “The absurdity of atheistic logic from it's root base is vanity and purely situational” is really not clear. To try to refute it one must make some sort of guess as to what it means, leaving one open to the charge of misinterpretation. Avoid this tactic. Instead, point out that the entire statement amounts to nothing more than his opinion, poorly worded at that, and challenge the author to provide an argument to support his thesis. If he does then you have something on which to base a rebuttal. If not then grant him his right to his opinion and move on.

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03-07-2013, 04:29 AM
RE: Help with an annoying theist friend?
(02-07-2013 11:59 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Here's some help: get new friends. Big Grin

Others have already taken that "argument" apart, but the gist of it reads, "I'm right, you're wrong, na-na na na-na!" Complete with exposed tongue. One cannot really "argue" with that kind of mindset.

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03-07-2013, 06:10 AM
RE: Help with an annoying theist friend?
Thank you all for the input. I'd had a lot of those ideas down, but the wording was escaping me. Including the "new friends" bit! :-D I've known the guy forever and it's only since he remarried he's gotten this annoying, but yea. Probably time to send him a bday card once a year and ignore him otherwise. BryanS, reading that thread now, thank you.
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03-07-2013, 07:46 AM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2013 07:50 AM by Full Circle.)
RE: Help with an annoying theist friend?
Ay caramba, your friend uses "big" words without knowing what they mean.

(02-07-2013 09:13 PM)Rauri Wrote:  Atheism is based on something coming from nothing as it's foundation is based on the Darwinian logic of evolution.

Here you friend equates three different things, atheism, abiogenesis and Darwin's theory of evolution. It is a word salad.

Atheism - is the lack of belief in gods.

Darwin's theory of evolution - Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. Evolutionary processes give rise to diversity at every level of biological organisation, including species, individual organisms and molecules such as DNA and proteins.

Abiogenesis - is a natural process by which life arises from simple organic compounds

So right off the bat your friend has created the Holy Trinity of Apologist thinking and misunderstanding.

(02-07-2013 09:13 PM)Rauri Wrote:  The absurdity of atheistic logic from it's root base is vanity and purely situational. Relativistic rationalism to try to define truth, justice, and right or wrong from their perspective is comical when fact is, they do not believe in absolutes or in a higher truth than their own vain imagination clothed in the idea of survival of the fittest.

It is an amazing and hypocritical comment full of errors in logic.

Vain imagination - accusing anyone who says they have not seen any evidence to support the claim of gods of "vain imagination" is both laughable and ignorant. Who in this scenario is claiming the supernatural? You or them?

Defining morality - Entire books have been written on this subject but off the top of my head:

"truth, justice, and right or wrong" - were practiced, defined and recorded by humans long before the Bible was ever written "The Code of Hammurabi is a well-preserved Babylonian law code, dating back to about 1772 BC".

It is well documented that cooperation among animals, proto-humans and Homo sapiens increases the chance of survival for purposes of breeding, defense, hunting etc. The fact that we, as a species, not only survived but flourished for +/- 200,000 years before "the Laws" were handed down to us in a burning bush makes his statement fucking moronic.

(02-07-2013 09:13 PM)Rauri Wrote:  Since their foundation stone of something coming from nothing from a time plus chance hyper-evoltionary process, then by logical conclusion, they have no right to advoacte anything as true or not true, values and justice are merely self-delusional rationalism, and the only concept of truth is an elitist self appointed collecdtive group of like minded something from nothing survival of the fittest, ban together, gain power and then force their views and relativistic values on the rest of us. You can not have a value system that originates from something coming from nothing.

More of the same nonsense that morality must come form a "higher power".
I bolded the most ignorant and hypocritical line. This is just a fantastic example of cognitive dissonance. In the short time since the Abrahamic religions have been practiced history is replete with barbarism attributed directly from trying to spread such beliefs at the point of a sword.

His carrot and stick argument presupposes that all would be chaos without the fear of celestial retribution and the hope for celestial reward, and yet here are all the atheists living quietly among you as major contributors to society...umm...must be something wrong with his hypothesis.

Or just tell him he doesn't know how to "science" Yes

Tip of the iceberg list of references:

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evohome.html
http://news.discovery.com/animals/ancien...mbryos.htm
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/...ostpopular
http://www.ted.com/talks/frans_de_waal_d...orals.html
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/201...d/?hp&_r=0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhHOjC4o...embedded#!
http://cen.acs.org/articles/91/i23/Ancie...ought.html
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/1000years.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi

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