Help with evangelical methodists
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20-08-2011, 12:01 PM
RE: Help with evangelical methodists
As honest of an answer as you can give, hopefully if it comes up you remember the question at that time.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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20-08-2011, 10:33 PM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2011 10:45 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Help with evangelical methodists
(20-08-2011 11:09 AM)theophilus Wrote:  I have been praying that you will become Christians but I don't think that any of you are already Christians.

But many of use were Christians and have committed the only truly unforgivable sin, having accepted the holy spirit into our lives only to later reject it.

(20-08-2011 11:09 AM)theophilus Wrote:  I am here because I think God wants me to be here and I am looking for converts. My sins have been forgiven because I have put my faith in Jesus Christ and I want others to experience this forgiveness.

I'm liking you more and more theophile. You are trying to witness to the voluntarily, consciously, rationally damned. That not only takes big hairy balls, but is also strangely admirable in a quixotic sorta way.

(20-08-2011 11:33 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(20-08-2011 11:25 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  If while being here trying to convince us of your side you start to waiver in your own belief will you leave?
I don't know what I would do in that situation. Of course if I became completely convinced that my beliefs are wrong I would stay here because I would be with others who share my beliefs or rather my lack of belief. But I don't know how I would respond if I were in a state where I had doubts about my beliefs but wasn't sure they were wrong.

Sure you do. Because you know an untested faith is no faith at all. It would just be your forty days in the desert. That's all. No biggie.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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20-08-2011, 11:14 PM
RE: Help with evangelical methodists
(20-08-2011 11:09 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(19-08-2011 10:48 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Wow! Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I don't quite agree with you ( and of course we'll never know lol ). I feel a bit guilty talking about him like this....its like gossiping in public about him......but.....yeah......you gotta wonder why he is on this forum. I reckon he has a degree of doubt about his beliefs, but to say he "knows" he really is an atheist is a big call. I wonder if his family knows who he's talking to on the internet? Care to tell us Theo?
You don't need to feel guilty for talking about me. It's interesting to see what you think about me.

If I had doubts about my beliefs I would probably avoid forums like this one because I would be afraid of learning anything that might prove them wrong. It is because I am confident about what I believe that I have no reason to avoid those who disagree with me.

I don't have a family and I have never tried to keep my presence here a secret from anyone.

Quote:Of course, we may be completely wrong. He may think we are Christians deep down, but are too proud to "accept Jesus" into our hearts. He could be praying for us now. Is that right Theo?
That is partly right. I have been praying that you will become Christians but I don't think that any of you are already Christians.

(20-08-2011 04:14 AM)Thammuz Wrote:  Instead of gossiping, let us ask then:
@Theophilus. Why are you so active on this forum?

I notice your activity on alot of threads, but I don't get the impression you're here looking for converts. Are you here for us or for yourself? (or whatever other options).
I am here because I think God wants me to be here and I am looking for converts. My sins have been forgiven because I have put my faith in Jesus Christ and I want others to experience this forgiveness.

Quote:As I said; why no link for donations?
My post was about the stupidity of prayer. Action works, prayer doesn't (besides helping the conscience of the praying person). Praying is also disagreeing with God's plan, which is arrogant. He's omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient? Then who are you to question his plans? If sweet, ol' grandma gets a painful tumor, she must have done something to deserve it, like breaking an arbitrary sabbath rule.
Actions are more effective if we first pray and make sure we are doing God's will and receive his power to help us. God commands us to pray and ask him for what we want. It isn't disageement with God's plan, it is part of his plan. When we pray we are acknowledging our need for God's help so prayer is an expression of humility, not arrogance.

And why should they have a link for donations? God wants the church to be supported by its members rather than asking outsiders for financial help.

Hi Theo, gee I feel a lot warmer towards you too! You actually answered a question that you were asked! Congratulations!

As we are "on a roll" I'll ask you another. You say you are hoping to help some people on this forum become Christians. Is that because you believe God will give YOU a pat on the back, a good spot in heaven? I have no problem if you admit this. Or is it because you genuinely believe others will get some benefit out of believing what you believe? Or is there some other reason?

Regards, Mark
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21-08-2011, 01:59 AM
RE: Help with evangelical methodists
(17-08-2011 12:25 PM)Thammuz Wrote:  Ok, checked the website and the "what we believe section"
[...]
The Prayer section is fun too. The have "the unreached people of the day". You could ask why praying should be chosen over ACTUALLY HELPING these people. I didn't see a link for donations.

That prayer section is not about helping people, it's about converting people to Christianity. The Methodists aren't going to waste their money helping anyone. They just pray for conversions - and if that happens they quickly move in and set up a tithing procedure.

It doesn't matter what this mob say on their "what we believe" website. They are evangelical fundies. They will turn the parishioner's mind into mush.

Check out this section from their statement of faith:
(5) We believe that until the return of Christ, it is the Christian’s duty and privilege to seek the fulfillment of Christ’s Great Commission and to minister in His name to a needy world.
In other words, new recruits are expected go out on the road and rope in more suckers for the church - that's knocking door to door, just like the Jehovah Witnesses.

Believe nothing you hear and only half what you see
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21-08-2011, 04:31 AM
RE: Help with evangelical methodists
(20-08-2011 10:33 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(20-08-2011 11:09 AM)theophilus Wrote:  I have been praying that you will become Christians but I don't think that any of you are already Christians.

But many of use were Christians and have committed the only truly unforgivable sin, having accepted the holy spirit into our lives only to later reject it.

That's true for most of us. I was forced into every religious activity and got punished when I asked heretic questions. And that should make ME the asshole? The guy that deserves eternal punishment?


"Why doesn't God help the poor kids in Africa?"
"But gay people don't hurt anyone. Why do they have to go to hell?"


Ooooh, that sure pissed them off. Christans don't like it when you steer off the goody goody path.


(20-08-2011 11:09 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Actions are more effective if we first pray and make sure we are doing God's will and receive his power to help us. God commands us to pray and ask him for what we want. It isn't disageement with God's plan, it is part of his plan. When we pray we are acknowledging our need for God's help so prayer is an expression of humility, not arrogance.


Praying first is better? I'll remember that when I see you lying in pool of blood after a violent car crash, begging for help.

I'll pray for you first, then anoint you, go to church, confess, respect the sabbath AND ONLY THEN call 911. It's for the best, because I want you to have the best care, including God's help. If you should die during that period, I will rejoice in having helped you go to a better place. It's my pleasure, no need to thank me.

"Infinitus est numerus stultorum." (The number of fools is infinite)
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22-08-2011, 11:33 AM
RE: Help with evangelical methodists
(20-08-2011 10:33 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  But many of use were Christians and have committed the only truly unforgivable sin, having accepted the holy spirit into our lives only to later reject it.
Are you sure you really were Christians? Being a Christian involves more than an intellectual believe the certain doctrines are true. There are things you must believe, such as the fact that Christ died and rose from the dead, but you can believe these and still fall short of really being a Christian.

Becoming a Christian requires a personal application of these truths to your own life. Merely believing that Christ died for sinners isn't enough; you must recognize the fact that you are a sinner who needs to be forgiven and you must realize that Christ died not just for sins in general but for your sins and you must personally make the decision to repent of your sins and trust in Christ for salvation. The difference between mere intellectual belief and saving belief is like the difference between believing that it is possible to jump out of a plane with a parachute and come to the ground safely and actually putting on a parachute and doing it.

I know from my experience that it is possible to be a Christian in outward appearance and yet not be saved. When I trusted in Christ I was already a member of a church. I had been baptized and was actively involved in the church. But my belief was merely a belief that certain facts were true. I had never personally applied these beliefs to my own life.

(20-08-2011 11:14 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  As we are "on a roll" I'll ask you another. You say you are hoping to help some people on this forum become Christians. Is that because you believe God will give YOU a pat on the back, a good spot in heaven? I have no problem if you admit this. Or is it because you genuinely believe others will get some benefit out of believing what you believe? Or is there some other reason?
I am not doing this to try to earn my way into heaven. Salvation is a free gift and we can't do anything to earn it. I want others to have this same experience of being saved that I have.

Once we are saved God rewards us for the work we do for him. This is something that is in addition to salvation, not the means to obtain it. I hope that I will be rewarded for what I do here, so that is part of my motivation, but not the main part of it.

(21-08-2011 04:31 AM)Thammuz Wrote:  Praying first is better? I'll remember that when I see you lying in pool of blood after a violent car crash, begging for help.

I'll pray for you first, then anoint you, go to church, confess, respect the sabbath AND ONLY THEN call 911. It's for the best, because I want you to have the best care, including God's help. If you should die during that period, I will rejoice in having helped you go to a better place. It's my pleasure, no need to thank me.
When you face a situation like this it is really too late to start praying. I pray regularly so that I will be prepared if I face this kind of situation. An emergency like the one you descibe requires immediate action. But I would probably be praying at the same time I was taking action.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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22-08-2011, 12:10 PM (This post was last modified: 22-08-2011 01:06 PM by DeepThought.)
RE: Help with evangelical methodists
(22-08-2011 11:33 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(20-08-2011 10:33 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  But many of use were Christians and have committed the only truly unforgivable sin, having accepted the holy spirit into our lives only to later reject it.
Are you sure you really were Christians? Being a Christian involves more than an intellectual believe the certain doctrines are true. There are things you must believe, such as the fact that Christ died and rose from the dead, but you can believe these and still fall short of really being a Christian.

Becoming a Christian requires a personal application of these truths to your own life. Merely believing that Christ died for sinners isn't enough; you must recognize the fact that you are a sinner who needs to be forgiven and you must realize that Christ died not just for sins in general but for your sins and you must personally make the decision to repent of your sins and trust in Christ for salvation. The difference between mere intellectual belief and saving belief is like the difference between believing that it is possible to jump out of a plane with a parachute and come to the ground safely and actually putting on a parachute and doing it.

I know from my experience that it is possible to be a Christian in outward appearance and yet not be saved. When I trusted in Christ I was already a member of a church. I had been baptized and was actively involved in the church. But my belief was merely a belief that certain facts were true. I had never personally applied these beliefs to my own life.

Wonderful... The no true Scotsman. From your other posts I was starting to think better of you, then you write this. Rolleyes

You arrogantly presume atheist ex-Christians were just pretending to be Christians? Like you know the thoughts in my head.
Maybe it was the pretend/Sunday Christians that got me starting to question Christianity and all the bullshit. The things I saw while I was there are almost enough to make me dry reach.

Add to that people like you who think they are the true Christians, the only saved people on earth who know the true interpretation of the bible.

I'd show you one of the latest joke pictures here but I think the irony would be lost on you.
Aw hell... Why not!
[Image: SZY1519PCW4153J11624.jpg]

Christians telling me I wasn't a real Christian is one of my pet peeves, especially after my experiences.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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22-08-2011, 02:47 PM (This post was last modified: 22-08-2011 02:53 PM by cufflink.)
RE: Help with evangelical methodists
(20-08-2011 11:09 AM)theophilus Wrote:  My sins have been forgiven because I have put my faith in Jesus Christ and I want others to experience this forgiveness.

Thanks, but I'm not interested in third-party forgiveness. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that Jesus "died for our sins," that's something I didn't ask for and don't want. I'm not a child--I don't need anyone to take responsibility for my misdeeds. I'm an adult, and adults are responsible for their own behavior.

If through my words or deeds I've wronged another person, then the sole forgiveness I care about can only come from that person. Once I recognize what I've done, I'll apologize sincerely, seek to make up for my errors in whatever way is possible and appropriate, and strive not to repeat them.

If I've wronged other living creatures, or the planet, or myself, there's no one to ask forgiveness from (except possibly from myself). In that case I'll likewise strive to learn from my mistakes so as not to repeat my errors, and I'll try to live my life in a way that makes up for my past misdeeds as best I can.

Any other conception of forgiveness is meaningless to me.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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22-08-2011, 04:09 PM
RE: Help with evangelical methodists
(22-08-2011 11:33 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Becoming a Christian requires a personal application of these truths to your own life.

As an atheist, I live my life far closer to what Christ demanded of me than 99% of Christians. Christ wasn't petty, he didn't demand belief or worship. He demanded a benevolent compassionate attitude and behavior. He demanded empathy. Most atheists are far more Christ-like than most Christians. Precisely because we aren't deluded by the bullshit promise of a postmortem preservation of identity, we know that it is how we behave here and now that matters. It's the only thing that matters.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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22-08-2011, 07:15 PM
RE: Help with evangelical methodists
(22-08-2011 04:09 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(22-08-2011 11:33 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Becoming a Christian requires a personal application of these truths to your own life.

As an atheist, I live my life far closer to what Christ demanded of me than 99% of Christians. Christ wasn't petty, he didn't demand belief or worship. He demanded a benevolent compassionate attitude and behavior. He demanded empathy. Most atheists are far more Christ-like than most Christians. Precisely because we aren't deluded by the bullshit promise of a postmortem preservation of identity, we know that it is how we behave here and now that matters. It's the only thing that matters.

Hi Girly man. I really appreciate your intelligent comments and nearly always agree with you. I must, however, ask you to have another think about your statement
"Christ wasn't petty, he didn't demand belief or worship. He demanded a benevolent compassionate attitude and behavior. He demanded empathy." Now....it is possible to interpet "Christ's" words in almost any way one wants....Christians have a habit of doing this. BUT....Jesus quite clearly on many occasions was blatantly intolerant of the non believer. I think it is important to realise this, because it is one of the original sources of Christian intolerance of the outsider. Apologies to anyone who has read me quoting the following on other posts:
An Intolerant Jesus
People today are very aware that intolerance of anyone with a different religion has been and still is a serious cause of disharmony around the world. Even some of the leaders of the largest Christian denominations are now, for the first time in history, paying lip service to respecting the beliefs of others. Does Jesus preach tolerance and acceptance of all men? No! Jesus was totally intolerant of anyone who didn’t share his beliefs;
“Anyone who believes in the Son has eternal life, but anyone who refuses to believe in the Son will never see life: the anger of God stays on him.” (John 3:33 NJB)
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:16 NJB)
Jesus even threatened to burn, kill or condemn others to hell for not believing;
“Anyone who does not remain in me is like a branch that has been thrown away – he withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and they are burnt.” (John 15:6 NJB).
"And if anyone does not welcome you or listen to what you have to say, as you walk out of the house or town shake the dust from your feet. I tell you solemnly on the day of judgement it will not go as hard with the land of Sodom and Gomorrah as with that town.” (Matthew 10:14-15 NJB) (A similar quote is repeated in Mark 6:11).
“Then he began to approach the towns in which most of his miracles had been worked, because they refused to repent. Alas for you Chorazin! Alas for you Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you were done in Tyre or Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sack cloth and ashes, and still I tell you that it will not go as hard on Judgement day on Tyre or Sidon as with you. And as for you Capernaum, did you want to be exalted as high as heaven? You shall be thrown down in hell for if the miracles done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have been standing yet. And still, I tell you that I will not go as hard with the land of Sodom on Judgement day as with you.” (Matthew 11:20-24 NJB)
“But as for my enemies who did not want me for their king, bring them here and execute them in my presence.” (Luke 19:27 NJB)

These quotes revealed a man who had a fanatical belief in himself and who denounced and threatened anyone who didn’t agree with him or didn’t worship him. This was a potentially violent, power hungry and arrogant man who quite clearly had a personal ambition to be in charge, not the words of someone bringing peace and good will to all men.

Throughout history many Christians, when in positions of power, have been encouraged by Jesus’ words to persecute or kill the outsider. Millions of people such as Jews, Islamists and natives of the Americas and Africa have been brutalised as a result of Christian prejudice. I believe Christian prejudice was one of the reasons George W. Bush invaded Iraq. Imagine a world today if Jesus had consistently preached universal tolerance and love; it would be a very much less violent and happier one!

Theo...a question for you. Would you obey your master (Jesus) by executing anyone who doesn't believe in him? If you answer yes wouldn't the world be a safer place if you were locked up somewhere? Please don't dodge the answers to these questions...give us a straight answer. Regards, Mark
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