Her savior or complicit in her torture?
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07-11-2013, 06:48 AM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2013 06:52 AM by Cathym112.)
Her savior or complicit in her torture?
Michelle Knight, one of the victims that was kidnapped by Ohio man Ariel Castro. She - and 2 other women - was raped daily, beaten, forced to miscarry at least 5 times, starved, and brutalized. For 10 years. Every day. For 10 years. Every day. For TEN YEARS.

Escape became possible only when one of her prison mates, Amanda Berry, kicked out a window and escaped.

Michele Knight stated in an interview with Dr. Phil, "I wanted to kiss the ground I walked on and thank god for letting me out of that hell hole."

Now...victims of crimes get a pass with me in terms of whatever brings them comfort. But really? I think it would be very clear to me at that point that god had abandoned me, or that he simply didn't exist at all. I imagine how she begged, and pleaded. And heard nothing. NOTHING!

Why have we never heard someone in this situation stand up and say, I escaped. I survived. I relied on my inner strength because that's all there ever is. What about that Austrian women who was held for 24 years and raped by her father so often he fathered 7 children with her. Did she thank god too? Has anyone boldly lifted a middle finger to the sky and say, I deny the existence of god?

Why do victims thank god? Is this part of the disgusting mentality that you are born worthless? That it was for your own good? To test your faith?

Theists - how do you look at this situation, and sees god's hand in this as mercy, instead of culpable to the complicity in her torture? How do you not see god's complete, utter and appalling apathy?
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07-11-2013, 06:54 AM
RE: Her savior or complicit in her torture?
I'll see you your Hitch quote and raise you a Rebecca Vitsmun...




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07-11-2013, 07:19 AM
RE: Her savior or complicit in her torture?
(07-11-2013 06:54 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I'll see you your Hitch quote and raise you a Rebecca Vitsmun...




I love that she was brave enough to admit it. But somehow I don't see these as the same. I'm talking about true victims
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07-11-2013, 07:21 AM
RE: Her savior or complicit in her torture?
Thiest, you also can't use the free will argument because he supposedly facilitated her escape. He interfered THEN why not at day two?

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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07-11-2013, 07:28 AM
RE: Her savior or complicit in her torture?
He has a reason and a plan. Don't you get it? Her story will inspire... um... good things?

Premise 1: A good ominpotent god exists
Premise 2: Bad things happen
Conclusion: Bad things must be good somehow in the long run. His ways are not our ways. He has a plan.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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07-11-2013, 07:30 AM
RE: Her savior or complicit in her torture?
(07-11-2013 07:28 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  He has a reason and a plan. Don't you get it? Her story will inspire... um... good things?

Premise 1: A good ominpotent god exists
Premise 2: Bad things happen
Conclusion: Bad things must be good somehow in the long run. His ways are not our ways. He has a plan.

I know you are being flip. But I seriously don't understand that logic at all
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07-11-2013, 07:34 AM
RE: Her savior or complicit in her torture?
(07-11-2013 07:30 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 07:28 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  He has a reason and a plan. Don't you get it? Her story will inspire... um... good things?

Premise 1: A good ominpotent god exists
Premise 2: Bad things happen
Conclusion: Bad things must be good somehow in the long run. His ways are not our ways. He has a plan.

I know you are being flip. But I seriously don't understand that logic at all

Of course you don't - nor do I; it's not logic - it's faith.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-11-2013, 07:39 AM
RE: Her savior or complicit in her torture?
(07-11-2013 07:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 07:30 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I know you are being flip. But I seriously don't understand that logic at all

Of course you don't - nor do I; it's not logic - it's faith.

Logic was a bad term. I guess I mean reasoning. Or rationalization.
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07-11-2013, 09:12 AM
RE: Her savior or complicit in her torture?
I also cannot understand how an experience like this can actually strengthen one's faith in this God that watched them, and their loved ones, suffer for so long.

I look at it as one of two explanations:
1.) It appears that great acts of accomplishment can only be carried out with the help of God. She may have felt that alone she could not pull of the escape at any point int time sooner, but when everything lined up for that opportunity there must have been something beyond her abilities intervening.

On the other hand, I wonder if this Castro guy "thanked God" when he got home with each girl for not getting caught? Explain that theists! Virgins...Bible.. for the taking - matches up with the stories!

2.) Maybe not quite in this case, but people say they "Thank God" all of the time without actually giving credit to an act of God. It is more of a routine response/saying drilled into us from childhood. Like if a vehicle containing 5 kids is in a car accident and only one is not seriously injured, the mother may say "thank god you are alright". I could see my wife even saying this although I know she does not mean it literally.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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07-11-2013, 09:26 AM
RE: Her savior or complicit in her torture?
(07-11-2013 06:48 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Michelle Knight, one of the victims that was kidnapped by Ohio man Ariel Castro. She - and 2 other women - was raped daily, beaten, forced to miscarry at least 5 times, starved, and brutalized. For 10 years. Every day. For 10 years. Every day. For TEN YEARS.

Escape became possible only when one of her prison mates, Amanda Berry, kicked out a window and escaped.

Michele Knight stated in an interview with Dr. Phil, "I wanted to kiss the ground I walked on and thank god for letting me out of that hell hole."

Now...victims of crimes get a pass with me in terms of whatever brings them comfort. But really? I think it would be very clear to me at that point that god had abandoned me, or that he simply didn't exist at all. I imagine how she begged, and pleaded. And heard nothing. NOTHING!

Why have we never heard someone in this situation stand up and say, I escaped. I survived. I relied on my inner strength because that's all there ever is. What about that Austrian women who was held for 24 years and raped by her father so often he fathered 7 children with her. Did she thank god too? Has anyone boldly lifted a middle finger to the sky and say, I deny the existence of god?

Why do victims thank god? Is this part of the disgusting mentality that you are born worthless? That it was for your own good? To test your faith?

Theists - how do you look at this situation, and sees god's hand in this as mercy, instead of culpable to the complicity in her torture? How do you not see god's complete, utter and appalling apathy?

I am not sure.

She was in a situation where she was completely powerless. This is
hard for a human mind to bear. Believing in God, and praying, gives
the feeling that you can have some influence over the situation
that you are in.
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