Here is a question I have been pondering for a while
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10-11-2014, 04:19 AM
RE: Here is a question I have been pondering for a while
what I want is an army of these two gundams to overthrow the shitty evil bastard in charge

skip to 0:26 to see why



AN ARMY OF ANGELS VS THESE
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10-11-2014, 04:31 AM
RE: Here is a question I have been pondering for a while
(09-11-2014 09:28 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 01:11 PM)Magoo Wrote:  So let's say you die and it turns out god is real. God offers you a deal, and you have 2 choices;

1. You get to enter heaven, and live in complete and utter bliss and happiness for 400 trillion years. That's right, 400,000,000,000,000 years of everything you could want. You could live in a glorious mansion, meet all your past relatives, spend every single day doing what you love and being happy, for an incredible amount of time.

However,

Once your 400 trillion years are up, and one day they will run out, you must spent the rest of eternity being tortured in hell. Imagine having your eyes gouged out, your limbs ripped from their sockets, or your head being crushed in a vice. Only for you to be put back together and having the same thing repeated over and over and over.

2. You conscience simply fades away and your return to where you were before you were born.

When I first asked myself this, I was immediately going for option 2. I was thinking, no matter how long I am in heaven, it doesn't matter if the amount of time I had was so long that if you wrote it down on a piece of paper, it would stretch the length of the universe, one day it will end. And once I end up in hell, 400 trillion years isn't even the beginning of eternity. But then I starting thinking about it some more. 400 trillion years is an absolutely incomprehensible amount of time. Our universe has been around for 13 billion years, and even that crazy amount of time isn't even a fraction of 400 trillion. So to be able to live in complete bliss for such a long time would seem like an offer you simply could not refuse. It is so long it could never end. And remember, I'm not talking about living for 400 trillion years, but being extremely happy. Maybe you could have a heroin rush that never ends, or eat a delicious dinner where you never get full, whatever is you could possibly imagine. But then option 2 comes to mind again, one day it will end.

Since a lot of you are atheists here, you may jump to option 2 because all the time that passed by before you existed was completely fine. But when you really think about what you could have if you choose option 1, it really makes you think again. I keep going through a cycle of "nope definitely go for oblivion, it really isn't that bad and I don't feel like hell", but then I think, "but 400 trillion years is so long, and I could have everything I want, it would be such a long time it would never end!". And then I think, one day it will end, and I am back to square one again.

I'm interested to hear what you people would chose. Think about for a minute before you post anything.

Well the only problem is outside of the analogy, hell in accordance with christian doctrine, isn't torture, it is simply a place devoid of god.

Source is Reason, Faith and Tradition by Martin C. Albl, Chapter 7 page 188 – describing hell.

"We begin with a reminder of limitations of our language. Since hell, according to Christian doctrine, is a supernatural reality, it can only be described in analogies. Holy Scripture teaches us the essence of hell in images. When it speaks of the fire of hell, it is not to be understood in a grossly realistic sense. The images of fire and pain were ways of expressing the essential Christian understanding of hell – that it is a separation from God. We may define heaven as simply being with God, and hell, in contrast, is simply being without God. It is thus an existence without goodness and without meaning."

But to play the analogy, I guess opt 1, 400 trillion years of bliss sounds good.
I was under the impression that we're supposed to need the presence of god in the same way that we need water and air. As a fundamental part of our being. So wouldn't hell be like starving forever?

Or is hell an actual cessation of existence if we're supposed to be "dead in our souls" without the influence of god? Actually what does being "dead in our souls" even mean; can a dead soul experience things?

So yeah. That makes option one a bit more attractive.

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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10-11-2014, 06:21 AM
RE: Here is a question I have been pondering for a while
Even if you could obtain paradise for that time span, the idea that it was going to end would be at the back of your mind. As mortals, we think of our eventual deaths fairly often, it can weigh heavy on our minds, yet we have promises of eternal paradise or non-existence as the eventual end result. To know that only horrendous, endless suffering awaits after your paradise ends would weigh on your mind, it would detract from your bliss, it could even drive you insane if you consider it too much.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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10-11-2014, 11:29 AM
RE: Here is a question I have been pondering for a while
(09-11-2014 01:14 PM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  Does the "everything I could ever want" include an army to overthrow the evil psychopath who was in charge? Otherwise to hell with that idea.

Viva la Revolution!!!

Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage among his books. For to you kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned with the flick of a finger.”

― Gordon R. Dickson
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10-11-2014, 11:47 AM
RE: Here is a question I have been pondering for a while
Hmm okay some people are getting a slightly wrong impression here. Firstly heaven is whatever you wanted it to be. If you don't want to meet your relatives then obviously you don't have to, it's your heaven.

Secondly, forget the Christian god part, I was using that as an example. The two options are the only things that matter here.
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10-11-2014, 12:35 PM
RE: Here is a question I have been pondering for a while
I choose option 1 and my bliss would be becoming a star somewhere in the universe. Only to burn out after eons of time and explode in super nova fashion. To me perhaps, that would be the hell you have described. Wash, rinse, repeat.

If option 2 is simply becoming a black hole, I'd rather be a star.
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10-11-2014, 02:15 PM
RE: Here is a question I have been pondering for a while
(09-11-2014 01:11 PM)Magoo Wrote:  1. You get to enter heaven, and live in complete and utter bliss and happiness for 400 trillion years. That's right, 400,000,000,000,000 years of everything you could want. You could live in a glorious mansion, meet all your past relatives, spend every single day doing what you love and being happy, for an incredible amount of time.

However,

Once your 400 trillion years are up, and one day they will run out, you must spent the rest of eternity being tortured in hell. Imagine having your eyes gouged out, your limbs ripped from their sockets, or your head being crushed in a vice. Only for you to be put back together and having the same thing repeated over and over and over.

2. You conscience simply fades away and your return to where you were before you were born.

If I read this the way you probably want me to, I'd pick #2. I don't feel like enduring eternal torture. The fact that you picked 400 trillion as your number for #1 just shows that people tend not to fathom large numbers very well. It doesn't matter what number you put up there if it's being contrasted by infinity.

That being said, if I take a literal reading of what you said, #1 entails "everything you could want". So, I imaging knowing that I'm going to be tortured at the end of it, one of those things that I would want would be to get out of the torture in some way or another. In this case, #1 seems like the clear winner to me.
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